Any reason to pay for more C cards?

[Subcooled]

SDI Computer Diver and SDI Boat Diver certs

Pretty useless, or would you ever encounter one of these situations:
"Because of liability concerns due to lacking certification, we cannot allow you to use that dive computer. You must rely on dive tables and use analog gauges."
"We cannot let you onboard this vessel. You should do independent free of charge shore dives instead"

 

[azmodan50]

Stuart... it seems that nearly every time you post something about classes with this shop/instructor there's always something that sounds squirrelly about the way some or other course is being run. Usually involving something that sounds very much like cutting corners standards-wise or otherwise short-changing students. When questioned about it you invariably back track and/or provide additional information, which may or may not cast the shop/instructor in a better light. I believe one of your very first threads here was a real dust-up about how many (few) dives were going to be required for your OW cert? Perhaps I'm thinking of someone else...

Either way, I think that you'd do well to communicate better with the instructor about things like this - ask HIM what's included, what the value is, etc - rather than coming here and posting incomplete/confusing information

If nothing else, that'd the best way for YOU to understand what exactly it is that you're signing up for.

Except that he only asked if having the additional cards was worth the cost. Everybody else turned it into a "Questioning the instructors methods" thread.

---------- Post added April 10th, 2015 at 09:00 AM ----------

I'd say the OP's instructor is pretty close to the edge.

From the latest SDI Standards manual:

3.11 Combining Specialties With the exception of SDI Deep Diver and SDI Computer Diver, none of the SDI Specialties may be combined into one program. An instructor may teach more than one specialty per day, but the courses must be taught separately. Altitude, Boat, Computer Nitrox, Dry Suit, and Shore/Beach Divers specialties may be combined with an SDI Open Water Diver course. No other specialty course may be combined with the SDI Open Water Scuba Diver course. The student must complete an academic review and receive the appropriate pool/confined water training prior to open water training. To receive both the SDI Open Water Scuba Diver certification and the additional specialty certification, the student must complete 5 total scuba dives.

Of all the information posted by the OP, everything states that the classes are being taught separate. The only thing being combined are the dives. And you can use one dive to meet multiple specialty requirements.

 

[stuartv]

Except that he only asked if having the additional cards was worth the cost. Everybody else turned it into a "Questioning the instructors methods" thread.

THANK YOU!

Stuart... it seems that nearly every time you post something about classes with this shop/instructor there's always something that sounds squirrelly about the way some or other course is being run. Usually involving something that sounds very much like cutting corners standards-wise or otherwise short-changing students. When questioned about it you invariably back track and/or provide additional information, which may or may not cast the shop/instructor in a better light. I believe one of your very first threads here was a real dust-up about how many (few) dives were going to be required for your OW cert? Perhaps I'm thinking of someone else...

Either way, I think that you'd do well to communicate better with the instructor about things like this - ask HIM what's included, what the value is, etc - rather than coming here and posting incomplete/confusing information

If nothing else, that'd the best way for YOU to understand what exactly it is that you're signing up for.

I concur.

I already asked the instructor and another instructor at the shop. They both said they did not see a reason I should pay for the extra C cards. But, as I believe there are people here on SB that are possibly more expert on the requirements for possible future training, as well as more knowledgeable about other agencies than the one my instructor is part of, I thought an additional opinion wouldn't hurt. Specifically, an opinion on whether spending $30 - 40 for C cards that I will have received the training on is worth it.

I never asked for any opinions on whether the actual training is worth it. I'm getting the training, regardless. I stated that in the OP.

I never asked for any opinions on whether the training is meeting agency standards. I already reviewed the standards and am satisfied that I would not be getting shortchanged on the Computer Diver training or the Boat Diver training in paying for the additional C cards. That was implied in the OP - unless you read it with a presumption that the instructor may be the type to violate standards.

And, honestly, I am not concerned about being denied a boat dive because I don't have a Boat Diver certification.

My question was motivated by knowing that some advanced certs require a certain minimum number of Specialties. Master Diver, for example, requires 5 full Specialties. But, I don't know if other, even more advanced certs would require more than 5. If so, then that might be a reason to take the extra C cards now. I also don't know if other, more advanced certs, might specifically require me to have something like Boat. I mean, it seems reasonable that if I were to decide to go for Dive Master some day, the DM training might require me to have the Boat Diver cert before I would be qualified to lead a dive off a boat. I don't know. I could look it up. But, unless I went and looked it up for all the different agencies, I would not have a complete answer. Maybe SDI doesn't require Boat as a prereq for DM, but maybe PADI does. Or maybe SSI does. Or NAUI. Or whoever.

Thus, I thought it would be easier to just ask the group. Upon reflection, I think I maybe have been incorrect.

---------- Post added April 10th, 2015 at 09:17 AM ----------

I'd say the OP's instructor is pretty close to the edge.

From the latest SDI Standards manual:

3.11 Combining Specialties With the exception of SDI Deep Diver and SDI Computer Diver, none of the SDI Specialties may be combined into one program. An instructor may teach more than one specialty per day, but the courses must be taught separately. Altitude, Boat, Computer Nitrox, Dry Suit, and Shore/Beach Divers specialties may be combined with an SDI Open Water Diver course. No other specialty course may be combined with the SDI Open Water Scuba Diver course. The student must complete an academic review and receive the appropriate pool/confined water training prior to open water training. To receive both the SDI Open Water Scuba Diver certification and the additional specialty certification, the student must complete 5 total scuba dives.

Let me lay it out one more time.

1 day of class for Deep and Computer.
1 day of class for Wreck, Boat, and Drift. Despite what the standards may say, it is just one book for all 3 and seems very clear to me (having done the class now) that those are intended to be taught together. It also makes sense to me that they would be taught together.
1 day at the pool to learn and practice the Wreck skills
1 day of diving at the quarry to cover Deep
1 day of diving at the quarry to cover Wreck (5 dives, total, between the 2 days at the quarry)
2 days of diving off a boat to actual wrecks (4 dives), which covers Boat

If, by "close to the edge", you mean "teaching fully and exactly to the requirements", well, actually, I would say that the pool day and the 2nd day diving off the boat are actually above and beyond.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Except that he only asked if having the additional cards was worth the cost. Everybody else turned it into a "Questioning the instructors methods" thread.

Except that the OP seemed to already know the answer to that question and was just looking for validation of his belief, which he got in the first half dozen posts. But then he started responding to the tangential issue that others raised.

 

[stuartv]

Except that the OP seemed to already know the answer to that question and was just looking for validation of his belief, which he got in the first half dozen posts. But then he started responding to the tangential issue that others raised.

True. I did think I knew the answer. But I also know that I don't know what I don't know. Thus why I come here and ask. Is that wrong? Inappropriate? Offensive somehow?

And also true that once others raised the tangential issues, I didn't want to just leave those out there with no response and, potentially, have other future readers think the insinuations about my instructor (who is not the same guy as the OW instructor I had, BTW) or the shop I go to are true.

An earlier post said something like "if the instructor is cutting corners and issuing a C card without fully teaching the course, that is reprehensible." Okay, sure, there was an "IF" put on the front of that. But, that's kind of like when Fox News says "if President Obama is really a Muslin who was not born in the U.S., then you can understand why he is flushing our relationship with Israel down the toilet to make a deal with Iran." Sure, they said "if", but it still carries weight and implies that there is some question about whether the "if" part may actually be true.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

And, honestly, I am not concerned about being denied a boat dive because I don't have a Boat Diver certification.

You shouldn't be ... I've been on dive boats all over the world and not once has anyone ever asked to see my Boat Diver card, which is fortunate since I don't own one.

Same goes for Computer Diver, even though I own two dive computers (Liquivision X1 and Shearwater Petrel).

To directly answer your question, the only reason to spend the extra money would be that you really wanted to own those two extra c-cards ... neither will grant you more access to diving than you'll have without them ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[stuartv]

You shouldn't be ... I've been on dive boats all over the world and not once has anyone ever asked to see my Boat Diver card, which is fortunate since I don't own one.

Same goes for Computer Diver, even though I own two dive computers (Liquivision X1 and Shearwater Petrel).

To directly answer your question, the only reason to spend the extra money would be that you really wanted to own those two extra c-cards ... neither will grant you more access to diving than you'll have without them ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Thanks, Bob.

I have been on a few dive boats already, too. Never seen anyone ask for a card.

I don't think the Computer Diver cert is really intended to be something that someone would ask to see in order for you to dive with a computer. I think it's really just intended to be a class that people can take to learn more about how to dive with a computer ('cause the OW class sure didn't cover anything but the very most basic info about PDCs). And, of course, you can't offer a class without offering a nice, shiny new C card to get out of it. I suppose it would also serve for some people as their one non-diving cert that they could use to count towards SDI Advanced Scuba Diver or Master Diver.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It's difficult to teach a standardized method for diving with a computer, because there are no real standards for how a dive computer works. There are significant variances in how NDL is calculated, what information displays, and how that information is interpreted. The very best way to learn that is to carefully read the manual or review the CD that comes with the computer and run some simulations ... almost all computers come with some level of dive planning function. The only real benefit of a course would be if a dive instructor works for a dive shop that sells the specific model you are using ... because they are then likely to be familiar with the algorithm your computer uses, how to set the various computer and dive functions, and what the specific limitations of the computer might be.

FWIW - most of the classes I've taught over the past couple years did not come with a c-card. I set them up as workshops ... tailored to what the student wanted to learn ... and made sure the student understood that this class was not something agency-specific, and therefore did not come with a c-card. After OW, most students don't really care as long as they get what they want out of the class. In fact, by far, my most popular class is what some students have labelled as a "bridge" class (between OW and AOW) that targets buoyancy and propulsion skills. It won't count toward some progression to a higher level of certification, but it will certainly make you more skilled and comfortable in the water.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Mustard Dave]

I'm offering an online computer diving course. It's totally free of charge for all SB members and covers all dive computers. If you wish to sign up just click the link!

Clicky link!

:cool2:

 

[stuartv]

LOL

Okay, to be fair, since I have now taken the Computer Diver course (can anyone else here say that?), I should say that it's not a course to teach you how to use your PDC. It's a course to teach you a lot more about PDCs in general than was taught in OW - at least, as far as the SDI OW course (including the book) goes.

In OW, we basically just learned the very basics of what a Rec PDC does. It tells you NDL, EDT, and depth. It probably also has some kind of ascent rate indicator. In OW, were basically just told to figure out how to find each of those things on whatever PDC we have/are given, and then how to use those pieces of data.

The Computer Diver course went into a lot more detail about PDCs in general. Different algorithms. Planning mode. Nitrox capability and how (in general) one would use that.

IOW, OW taught you just enough about PDCs to be able to use one for basic Rec diving. Computer Diver teaches you enough about them so that you ought to be able to successfully shop for and buy one of your own, now knowing what features to look for, what questions to ask, etc.. I think, for most recent SDI OW grads, the Computer Diver course is worth taking (depending on what your shop/instructor charges).