Any reason to pay for more C cards?

[TSandM]

Stuart, I went back and read my post, and of course I wrote it, but it seems to me clear that what I was talking about was "double dipping", or counting dives toward two classes at once, without including the instructional material that is supposed to be part of each class. This is not supposed to be done by PADI rules, but I have no familiarity at all with SSI's standards. If your instructor was saying, "Well, although these dives are meant to be part of X class, but could also be counted for Y, so do you want both cards?" then yes, I think that's reprehensible. If he has put together a composite class that teaches the materials for four classes, but is simply asking how many of those cards you actually want to pay PIC costs for, then no, there's nothing wrong with that at all.

 

[stuartv]

Stuart, I went back and read my post, and of course I wrote it, but it seems to me clear that what I was talking about was "double dipping.

Right, and in the context of this thread, what seem to be implied was that you feel like that is what is happening in THIS course. And I think my last post before yours explained in detail why I don't think (not being an SDI official or instructor myself) that what is being done is violating any SDI standards in any way. As I explained then, the full material of all the certs has been taught. The relevant training dives are scheduled. No double dipping is happening, except where specifically allowed - e.g. using the Deep dives to also cover the required Computer Diver dives is specifically allowed - and, further, seems to me to make sense that it would be. The Computer Diver cert requires two dives, but it doesn't require any in-water skills, so why not allow them to be combined?

I have come to value you your opinion, so if you have read the details that I posted and you do think there is something inappropriate going on, I would definitely like to know.

 

[azmodan50]

Computer Nitrox? does that mean you cant dive without a computer?

Yes, Computer Nitrox. For diving Nitrox with a computer as opposed to using tables. Not sure with SDI, but with SSI, it's basically the same course except the final is a little different. I took the computer final and it still had questions regarding the tables, but the non-computer course doesn't ask you any computer questions.

All semantics really. My card still only says EAN 40.

---------- Post added April 9th, 2015 at 03:32 PM ----------

Stuart, I went back and read my post, and of course I wrote it, but it seems to me clear that what I was talking about was "double dipping", or counting dives toward two classes at once, without including the instructional material that is supposed to be part of each class. This is not supposed to be done by PADI rules, but I have no familiarity at all with SSI's standards. If your instructor was saying, "Well, although these dives are meant to be part of X class, but could also be counted for Y, so do you want both cards?" then yes, I think that's reprehensible. If he has put together a composite class that teaches the materials for four classes, but is simply asking how many of those cards you actually want to pay PIC costs for, then no, there's nothing wrong with that at all.

I see your confusion but as long as all the class work and pool work has been done, one dive can count for multiple specialties. When we teach SDI open water courses, we add the class and pool work for dry suit. The students end up with the OW cert and the dry suit cert after their 5 open water dives.

I'm not sure if there is a limit to the number that can be combined, but there is no reason that one dive couldn't count towards multiple specialties. A deep dive in a dry suit with a computer is still one deep dive, one dry suit dive, and one computer dive.

 

[stuartv]

Computer Nitrox? does that mean you cant dive without a computer?

SDI Computer Nitrox used to be called, I think, Easy Nitrox.

SDI was, I think, the first agency to teach OW without teaching tables, relying solely on computers. As of last summer, I think PADI started offering the same thing, at least as an option. But anyway....

SDI Computer Nitrox certifies the diver to dive with Nitrox, but, again, does not teach any tables (other than reading an MOD table). No math. No EAD stuff. No point, really, if you assume the student is SDI OW trained, which means they potentially have no training in tables at all anyway. They (We) are trained to understand what the MOD is, how to analyze the gas, etc..

Does that mean an SDI Computer Nitrox diver is going to get carded and denied a Nitrox fill or a dive if they aren't/can't prove that they will be diving with a Nitrox-capable computer? I don't know, but I highly doubt it.

I took TDI Nitrox last weekend. There wasn't anything in that class that wasn't in the SDI Nitrox class except the actual use of dive tables to do planning instead of using a computer. And just as well, it seems to me. I'd say there's a lot greater chance of a recreational diver making a bad mistake if they are using tables to plan a nitrox dive versus the same diver using the same analyzer to check their gas and then plugging the FO2 into their dive computer.

EDIT: Maybe I should have ordered my points differently. Really, the point is SDI OW certs aren't trained and, thus, not certified to dive without computers anyway, Nitrox or not. Unless the instructor goes above and beyond the standards, of course. So, having a Nitrox cert and still being required to use a computer doesn't really change anything for the SDI diver.

 

[TMHeimer]

As pointed out, the card is fine if you really need the education. If you're heavy into it, I can see getting something like Search & Recovery. I will never get another card. I learned a fair bit doing the courses for MSD years ago, but my usual diving doesn't benefit a whole lot from said cards. My buoyancy was pretty good before the PPB course, though it wasn't a waste. The professional level cards are another matter, depending on how far you want to go with that. Besides, I don't have that $30-$40 lying around.

 

[RJP]

Right, and in the context of this thread, what seem to be implied was that you feel like that is what is happening in THIS course.

Stuart... it seems that nearly every time you post something about classes with this shop/instructor there's always something that sounds squirrelly about the way some or other course is being run. Usually involving something that sounds very much like cutting corners standards-wise or otherwise short-changing students. When questioned about it you invariably back track and/or provide additional information, which may or may not cast the shop/instructor in a better light. I believe one of your very first threads here was a real dust-up about how many (few) dives were going to be required for your OW cert? Perhaps I'm thinking of someone else...

Either way, I think that you'd do well to communicate better with the instructor about things like this - ask HIM what's included, what the value is, etc - rather than coming here and posting incomplete/confusing information

If nothing else, that'd the best way for YOU to understand what exactly it is that you're signing up for.

 

[Steve_C]

I did SDI OW and AOW and Nitrox. May have just been my instructor but we also worked with tables. I am a computer diver but before a trip I will sometimes use tables to see if what I am planning looks reasonable. Easier to use the table then get out the dive computer and punch some buttons.

 

[tomfcrist]

Stuart... it seems that nearly every time you post something about classes with this shop/instructor there's always something that sounds squirrelly about the way some or other course is being run. Usually involving something that sounds very much like cutting corners standards-wise or otherwise short-changing students. When questioned about it you invariably back track and/or provide additional information, which may or may not cast the shop/instructor in a better light. I believe one of your very first threads here was a real dust-up about how many (few) dives were going to be required for your OW cert? Perhaps I'm thinking of someone else...

Either way, I think that you'd do well to communicate better with the instructor about things like this - ask HIM what's included, what the value is, etc - rather than coming here and posting incomplete/confusing information

If nothing else, that'd the best way for YOU to understand what exactly it is that you're signing up for.

I concur.

 

[agilis]

One very important C card that you should always be prepared to present is your Paired Diver (sometimes called Buddy Diver card) that allows you to pair up with another diver. Otherwise you may be forced to dive solo.

 

[tursiops]

I'd say the OP's instructor is pretty close to the edge.

From the latest SDI Standards manual:

3.11 Combining Specialties With the exception of SDI Deep Diver and SDI Computer Diver, none of the SDI Specialties may be combined into one program. An instructor may teach more than one specialty per day, but the courses must be taught separately. Altitude, Boat, Computer Nitrox, Dry Suit, and Shore/Beach Divers specialties may be combined with an SDI Open Water Diver course. No other specialty course may be combined with the SDI Open Water Scuba Diver course. The student must complete an academic review and receive the appropriate pool/confined water training prior to open water training. To receive both the SDI Open Water Scuba Diver certification and the additional specialty certification, the student must complete 5 total scuba dives.