Anti ScubaPro bias?

[BoltSnap]

You are correct that engineering and materials are constantly improving year after year.

On the other hand I am diving a ScubraPro Mk25 1st stage from 2003 that is nearly identical to another Mk25 I got in 2019. Both use the same service kit and are completely interchangeable. I suppose I could spend a lot of money on a newer Titanium model, but otherwise this design will likely still be sold nearly unchanged in another 20 years.

You said "nearly identical" this is probably because there have been some changes in parts over time due to availability of better material, better engineering, better manufacturing, etc.. One such case is the change in the S600 second stage, piston, etc.

The engineering and materials improvements you are referring to that are brought about in other markets, space program for example, eventually trickle down to other industries even those that seemingly have absolutely nothing to do with the originating industry. One example is the space program for sure. Long time ago I was part of a team that did engineering investigative work on how to apply a technology used on the space shuttle for terrestrial application that had no direct relationship to the space program.

Scubapro is known to continue to improve its regulators incrementally even years or decades after their introduction to the market. Some of these upgrades are offered for free to owners of older makes of the same model and some other upgrades customers have to pay for these upgrades. Atomic does the same thing. (AL does it also but it slaps a new logo and name on the regulator and calls it a new regulator )

 

[Fred Tagge]

I've been diving Scubapro gear since 1968, and I've been an Ocean Engineer since '73. Scubapro's "lifetime" warranty has been repeatedly been proven to be "for the lifetime of the design" not for the lifetime of the purchaser. OTOH before Johnson bought them they did do their absolute best to provide repair parts until the production parts ran out. The old MK V had the best flow rates and easiest servicing requirements of any reg available at the time, and they kept making it unchanged until the patent ran out and other companies cloned them. Most of the changes between the MK V and the MK25 have been to ease manufacture with a few changes that "may" have improved performance, as well as incorporate a few new patents to keep others from "their" new regs. The second stages have "improved a bit over time" but most are still based on the original 109 design, with the requirement for a molded plastic seat and a couple other bits Scubapro maintains tight control over. While the first stage could (and I literally have) be rebuilt with 2 nails and a pair of pliers on the back deck with bag of O-rings and a bit of lube the second stages generally required a bit more in tooling and parts. This is not a property of just SP as almost all manufacturers play similar games.
I still have several MK V regs in my spares kit, as well as several of the clones that take the same o-rings and other bits that work just fine for non-life support duties running tools, or inflating large lift bags. Eventually I'll similarly tool up to repair my "new" MK 25s.

 

[NW Dive Dawg]

I didn't even think about reading through this entire 170 post thread.... but in response to the OP's question......I feel that SP really makes excellent quality and time tested dependable gear....but that folks can sometimes get "put-off" by some of the aggressive marketing. I also don't like that SP seems to have intentionally made some proprietary "connectors" for their drysuits and BC inflator and Air 2's ... so you have to buy a product that really should be standardized. It's kinda like if you bought Scubapro tires for your truck and they had a different sized inflator stem so you were forced to use their connector... rather than the same one that everyone else uses.

 

[BoltSnap]

SP seems to have intentionally made some proprietary "connectors" for their.... and BC inflator

Not true, their BC connector is standard.

SP seems to have intentionally made some proprietary "connectors" for their .... and Air 2's

Every manufacturer of "Air II" type of integrated BC Inflator/Alternate SS uses some type of a nonstandard connector and not the standard BC inflator connector. The problem with the standard BC connector use for a second stage is that it doesn't support enough air flow rate to support a breathing device. The standard BC connector wasn't designed to support SS air flow requirements. SP isn't unique or the only one in this matter.

 

[scubadada]

@NW Dive Dawg

All the Air2 like inflators use some type of proprietary connector for the higher flow vs. a normal flow inflator. There are 3 or 4 different types to match the Air2 like device.

EDIT: @BoltSnap beat me to it

 

[NW Dive Dawg]

Scubadada. and Boltsnap......Thanks for the education and the link to the adaptors!

 

[Bigbella]

Every manufacturer of "Air II" type of integrated BC Inflator/Alternate SS uses some type of a nonstandard connector and not the standard BC inflator connector. The problem for the standard BC connector use for a second stage is that it doesn't support enough air flow rate to support a breathing device. The standard BC connector wasn't designed to support SS air flow requirements. SP isn't unique or the only one in this matter.

Similar "high-flow" QD attachments are also used with manifolds and full-face masks, for that same reason.

As to the original topic, that early lack of end-user service kits had always been the deal breaker for me, in terms of regulators, especially while living abroad without any "certified repair centers" nearby -- that and the odd Byzantine terms of their "lifetime" warranties; but I have owned other ScubaPro products for years, from Jet Fins and masks to dry suits and have no real complaints, in terms of their other skin diving products . . .

 

[Twoblues]

Regulators-they forbid sale of parts to end users, huge problem with technical divers. They're also exorbitantly expensive. A MK25/G260 is $690 for just a first and second. A Deep6 Signature is $375. The Scubapro doesn't perform any better yet is twice the cost. *disclaimer, I do have 5x MK25's, 4x MK10's, 2x MK20's and 5x 109's from Scubapro, but they were all bought at idiotically low prices or given to me*. Should go forth and say that my bias isn't against the regulators themselves. The rest of my regs are Poseidons. If I were to buy new? 100% they'd all be Deep6's
Now, those of us in the "in" crowd all have our sources, but for new divers buying into it, they're just not a good value. In Europe and Asia they are still the king, even in technical diving, but other options, largely thanks to @cerich have started to displace them in the US in this type of crowd. A lot of people outside the US buy Apeks for similar reasons that @bamafan outlined with Scubapro, but in the US, both of those brands are marketed heavily and have basically priced themselves out of the tech market. For those that still like them, the market thankfully turns over every 3 or so years so you can buy them super cheap when people get out of the sport.

BC's-they took a long time to get into the bp/w market and this board has been heavily biased towards bp/w's for a very long time. Once they came out, the X-tek Pure was ~$700 and you could buy a Deep Sea Supply for $500 that was Made in USA, you could talk to the owner, etc etc. Again, not a good value. Granted, the wing also wasn't that great since it was so wide, but that's besides the point. You can now buy a higher quality bp/w package from @OWIC647 at Vintage Double Hose for just over $300 which is a steal.

Masks/Fins-most everyone loves Jet Fins and they make great masks. The fins have now fallen out of favor with the prevalence of sidemount and rebreather diving which tend to prefer neutral fins, but those of us that still dive doubles use them almost exclusively.

Dive gear isn't a "you get what you pay for" market. There are incredibly high quality products sold at reasonable prices, and there are incredibly high quality products sold at very high retail prices. Scubapro does not target technical divers because we don't make them a lot of money. They can sell high dollar, high margin products to recreational divers and make boat loads more money than they can to technical divers so they stay out of it. Technical divers tend to be rather vocal and are a large portion of this board, including the owner who responded first, the guy who posted above me, and myself. I see a lot more Scubapro gear in the "wild" than most other brands, but it is not in favor on this board or in a lot of technical circles for the reasons outlined above.

tldr: overpriced quality gear. sh!tty company

Do some people buy Scubapro for the same reason as buying Gopro, brand recognition?

 

[OMyMyOHellYes]

Do some people buy Scubapro for the same reason as buying Gopro, brand recognition?

Johnson Outdoors is counting on it.

Literally.

 

[Ski_Lounge]

Do some people buy Scubapro for the same reason as buying Gopro, brand recognition?

Yep. That, and, when I was starting out and buying my first set of gear, their marketing byline was strangely reassuring. ("Deep down you want the best.") In my defense, I didn't know any better!