Another Tables vs. Computers Thread

[The Chairman]

limeyx,

The whole tenor of the debate for some has been that you turn your brain off when diving with a computer. Do you NOW feel differently? If so, you failed to communicate that adequately as well.

The issue is NOT whether computers turn your brain off: but rather can they be a safe substitute for a watch, depth gauge and tables.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Ah,

If you think that somehow being chained to a table, watch and depth guage is ANY different than being chained to a computer you are completely deluded!

If you feel that an OW student should be able to pull a table out of their arse you are completely delusional.

I like not being chained to anything. I own dive computers, lots of tables, decompression software for both the palm and the PC and I can even pull a table out of my arse (as you put it). All but the arse thing seem viable options for almost any one. When it comes to some things (and this is one of them, IMO) choice is a good thing and teaching a computer only class provides little choice. Your contention that teaching a table only class also provides little choice too is noted though I may not totally agree.

To insure clearity, I think it's good that you address computer diving in your classes but I think failure to teach tables is bad if only because it puts unnecessary and expensive restrictions on the student. Maybe you teach tables and computers. If so, good deal and you're the man (except for those hosed up neg buoyancy vertical ascents of course). A couple of dollars worth of tables (at most) will get the diver through lots of GREAT diving without having to spend a ton purchasing or renting computers...if computer rental is available at all where the diver is diving. For example, there are lots of places near where I live to dive. In order to rent any equipment at all I'd have to go 60 miles out of my way and probably at least 100 miles (maybe more like 130) if I needed to rent a computer. Now, there is no way I can dive without a reg so I have to have one. I can't dive without a tank so I have to have one. Most of the year and for depths beyond 35 ft or so, I need some kind of exposure protection. those things I have to have. Even when I was new though, I was able to do a lot of diving without a computer and luckily I learned how.

 

[H2Andy]

and I can even pull a table out of my arse (as you put it).

:11:

i triple dog dare you!

 

[The Chairman]

So Mike,

you feel that CONVENIENCE and not SAFETY are the real issues here?

BTW, you are always chained to SOMETHING. You equate the price of computers to tables, when in actuality they replace several tables (various altitudes and mixes), a watch and a depth gauge. The price variant is not NEARLY so steep when you compare EVERYTHING.

 

[Blackwood]

:11:

i triple dog dare you!

I quadruple dog dare you to be the one to put it in there

 

[H2Andy]

dude, even i have certain standards

 

[MikeFerrara]

limeyx,

The whole tenor of the debate for some has been that you turn your brain off when diving with a computer. Do you NOW feel differently? If so, you failed to communicate that adequately as well.

The issue is NOT whether computers turn your brain off: but rather can they be a safe substitute for a watch, depth gauge and tables.

Two points. First, I'm not sure that the tenor of the debate has really been whether or not one can safely dive with a computer. At times, especially on the subject of alarms, you seem to have been suggesting that the computer was actually safer or that a diver not using one was somehow foolish?

People turn off their brains for all kinds of reasons and having a computer might at times be one. Even the old PADI text that I referenced earlier repeatedly states that a diver can't turn off their brain when diving with a computer...really, they used very similar wording. Of course they also recommend bringing your tables with you and that's a wast of time if you don't know how to use them. Second, most of us here have dived safely with a computer and I know some divers who do some pretty serious dives with them so I wouldn't consider a dive unsafe just because a computer is used. Note, however, that they've done the same dives without computers and, today, they have a choice. I'm getting the impression that some new divers today don't have that same choice. That's too bad.

 

[The Chairman]

dude, even i have certain standards

Dude, I thought you were a lawyer!?!?!?!

 

[H2Andy]

i didn't say they were particularly high standards

 

[MikeFerrara]

So Mike,

you feel that CONVENIENCE and not SAFETY are the real issues here?

Pete, you and I have been acquainted with each other here for quit a while right? Let me ask you straight up...do you really think that I'm one to intentionally disregard dive safety in regards to myself or students? I mean really, about 90% of my posts deal directly with the subject of dive safety. If you are suggesting that I somehow disregard safety because I don't consider a computer manditory, please show some statistically significant evidence that dive computers have increase safety. If you can't, then please stop insulting me that way.

I have to believe that you're deliberately trying to decieve some one with such statements or you are just intentionally being insulting because you're too far away for us to be able to deal with such insults face to face. If you insist on these repeated insults, I really have to request a face to face meeting so that you and I can come to some sort of friendy understanding.

BTW, you are always chained to SOMETHING. You equate the price of computers to tables, when in actuality they replace several tables (various altitudes and mixes), a watch and a depth gauge. The price variant is not NEARLY so steep when you compare EVERYTHING.

Lets talk about the other things you mention. The altitude doesn't vary by an amount significant to a diver for hundreds of miles of where I live. You're in Florida, do you do many altitude dives? Pay back on investment? Can we not dive different mixes and different altitudes with tables? The computer replaces several tables? you could argue that you need different table for helium mixes but you don't for O2 enriched mixtures or dives at altitude. ok, then mutiply my estimate of a couple of dollars by "several" if you want. That's still nickles and dimes... if you don't grab the tables off the net or have them included in a book that you already own. You can get a watch for $20, depth guages are cheap and you can get a real slick electronic bottom timmer for a little over $100. Why should we consider everything? Aren't you pre-supposing that most dive will be in the sea or even in specific parts of the sea like the caribbean? Where do your students do most of their diving? What altitude is the Florida coast and the Caribbean? Be careful. This is a test.

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