lamont
Contributor
MikeFerrara:
I don't think he realizes he's being insulting. He seems to desperately want to have an argument *only* with people who think that computers inherantly rot your brain (easy to argue those people are wrong).
Another Tables vs. Computers Thread
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I don't think he realizes he's being insulting. He seems to desperately want to have an argument *only* with people who think that computers inherantly rot your brain (easy to argue those people are wrong).
limeyx
Guest
NetDoc:
Actually, the debate seems to have ended up with you calling me condescending and delusional without pointing out anything that I wrote that I think could be said to be either.
I've said more than once that no one should modify their diving as a result of anything I say, and should definitely not go burn their computer. However, if people do want to investigate other ways of doing it, then there are definitely options for them to do so.
I think I stopped short of any personal attacks -- which makes sense as I've never met most of the people involved in this thread -- but the same cannot be said of some others.
As an instructor I will tell you that tables are very important. Its also the instructor whom should be telling you how tables came into being and why they are used. To answer one question from the origianl post, there is a big difference between the mechanical structure of the table and a computer screen read out. As you all lernt in your OPW class tables are square profiles whilst computers are an exact profile of your dive giving you credit for N2 for your profiles depths, computers are no more or less reliable than tables.
If instructors teach tables correctly then you would understand how your absorbing N2based on depth and time, how your off gasing N2 during your surface interval and how much N2 you need to factor into a repetitive dive. Computers are no more reliable than tables they use the same theoretical calculations as dive tables do and depending upon the manufacturer are less or more conservative than others.
Every diver should understand dive tables. Lets say your on a live-aboard for 7-10 days your computer fails on the first dive of the day and you planned 4 or five dives that day, are you going to sit it out for 24 hours, no go to the tables and continue diving.
As a final FYI here, all dive tables are based on the original navy dive tables, how were these derived, by getting able-bodied seamen 20-25 years old bent and monitoring thier phisological conditions and recovery. Recreational dive tables are all derived from these origianal findings and have been adapted for recreational usage.
One final point, PLAN YOUR DIVE AND DIVE YOUR PLAN never just jump in and rely on anything other than your dive plan.
If instructors teach tables correctly then you would understand how your absorbing N2based on depth and time, how your off gasing N2 during your surface interval and how much N2 you need to factor into a repetitive dive. Computers are no more reliable than tables they use the same theoretical calculations as dive tables do and depending upon the manufacturer are less or more conservative than others.
Every diver should understand dive tables. Lets say your on a live-aboard for 7-10 days your computer fails on the first dive of the day and you planned 4 or five dives that day, are you going to sit it out for 24 hours, no go to the tables and continue diving.
As a final FYI here, all dive tables are based on the original navy dive tables, how were these derived, by getting able-bodied seamen 20-25 years old bent and monitoring thier phisological conditions and recovery. Recreational dive tables are all derived from these origianal findings and have been adapted for recreational usage.
One final point, PLAN YOUR DIVE AND DIVE YOUR PLAN never just jump in and rely on anything other than your dive plan.
lamont:
He realizes it and that's why the despirate attempt to make it a safety issue with the computer being the "safe" way to dive. Of course he presents no evidence that computers have made diving safer for any one.
Computer can't do anything except for what they've been programmed to do so we have that cleared up. If our brains "rot" it's because we choose to not use them. Are we seeing people make that choice more often?
Think what you will. I did not say you were trying to be unsafe. Your post that I responded to, seemed to indicate that safety was not the issue, but that convenience (the ability to use tables) and finances were the primary issues.MikeFerrara:
So, let me re-frame the question.
Do you believe that tables are inherently safer than computers?
If not, than why are you so pro-table and anti-computer"
If so, than please show how it is statistically safer.
For those who consider me myopic...
This is obviously refering to a learning situation: ie an OW Student. I have tried to keep to the original question, but y'all seem to want to explore technical diving.
Original Post:
This is obviously refering to a learning situation: ie an OW Student. I have tried to keep to the original question, but y'all seem to want to explore technical diving.
IwakuniDiver
Contributor
I just thought that I would chime in with my two cents.
I don't really don't think that anyone here really believes that relying on a computer for planning and carrying out your dive will literally "rot your brain". People have said that for years since the invention of radio and the TV and IQ's are still unchanged.
Can someone enjoy diving without learning how dive tables work? Sure. Just because you drive a car doesn't mean you have to be a mechanic. But, you only have everything to gain by learning how to use tables, why they're around, and the theories involved. Learning how to use tables will only make you a better, safer, more informed diver.
If you're one of those kinds of divers that only splashes when on trips to Cozumel, Hawaii, while on holiday and only follows the instructions from your Dive Master that you pay for, by all means, just keep using your computer and follow the safety rules you were taught.
If you want to take your diving to the next level, want to start planning your own dives or are interested in Technical, Decompression Dives. You had better be prepared to learn your tables inside and out just to get you started down that road.
That's the reality, now here's my opinion.
There is no reason to not learn your tables. The only excuse for not doing it is just becuase you're too lazy to take the time and I wouldn't buddy up with a diver like that in a million years. I'd rather drink beer on the boat.
I don't really don't think that anyone here really believes that relying on a computer for planning and carrying out your dive will literally "rot your brain". People have said that for years since the invention of radio and the TV and IQ's are still unchanged.
Can someone enjoy diving without learning how dive tables work? Sure. Just because you drive a car doesn't mean you have to be a mechanic. But, you only have everything to gain by learning how to use tables, why they're around, and the theories involved. Learning how to use tables will only make you a better, safer, more informed diver.
If you're one of those kinds of divers that only splashes when on trips to Cozumel, Hawaii, while on holiday and only follows the instructions from your Dive Master that you pay for, by all means, just keep using your computer and follow the safety rules you were taught.
If you want to take your diving to the next level, want to start planning your own dives or are interested in Technical, Decompression Dives. You had better be prepared to learn your tables inside and out just to get you started down that road.
That's the reality, now here's my opinion.
There is no reason to not learn your tables. The only excuse for not doing it is just becuase you're too lazy to take the time and I wouldn't buddy up with a diver like that in a million years. I'd rather drink beer on the boat.
In all the testing that has been done with deco theory over the years, there is still no precise model. Two divers diving the same profile, even within the tables, may end up with one bent and the other fine. They could go outside the rec limits, and both be fine. Even the same diver can do the same dives on two different days and get hit one day and not the next.
It's all very fuzzy.
A computer is just a very precise way of measuring a fuzzy number.
Have you ever heard the phrase "measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with an axe"? That is what a computer does, it serves as the micrometer. However, the goal (NDL or deco requirements) isn't so precisely set.
So arguing that a computer is "more precise" is pointless. The precision is wasted. And since the goal is so fuzzy, nothing is really lost by using some mental shorthand tricks (aka approximations) to track it.
I've used a computer for years. I did find that over time I was getting lazy and just looking at my computer to see how I was doing.
I am now moving into the 'no computers' camp. This is because I've been learning the mental shorthand for keeping track of my profile and calculate my NDL based on that, whether diving air or nitrox. But I also find that the act of keeping track in my head keeps me focused. It keeps me paying attention to my dive, the same way that tracking altitude speed and distance helps me keep track of my flight when flying.
The more I got into flying, the more I wanted that awareness of what was going on with the flight. Just the same as with diving. I am looking to more advanced diving in the future, and am learning the techniques now. Had I learned them years ago, I could have used them on my recreational dives for the past decade and only had to add a few things for more advanced dives. I wouldn't have to start from scratch with them as I am now.
It's all very fuzzy.
A computer is just a very precise way of measuring a fuzzy number.
Have you ever heard the phrase "measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with an axe"? That is what a computer does, it serves as the micrometer. However, the goal (NDL or deco requirements) isn't so precisely set.
So arguing that a computer is "more precise" is pointless. The precision is wasted. And since the goal is so fuzzy, nothing is really lost by using some mental shorthand tricks (aka approximations) to track it.
I've used a computer for years. I did find that over time I was getting lazy and just looking at my computer to see how I was doing.
I am now moving into the 'no computers' camp. This is because I've been learning the mental shorthand for keeping track of my profile and calculate my NDL based on that, whether diving air or nitrox. But I also find that the act of keeping track in my head keeps me focused. It keeps me paying attention to my dive, the same way that tracking altitude speed and distance helps me keep track of my flight when flying.
The more I got into flying, the more I wanted that awareness of what was going on with the flight. Just the same as with diving. I am looking to more advanced diving in the future, and am learning the techniques now. Had I learned them years ago, I could have used them on my recreational dives for the past decade and only had to add a few things for more advanced dives. I wouldn't have to start from scratch with them as I am now.
Please re-read the OP.
The discussion is not whether the computer is "more precise" with a swag. The discussion revolves around an OW class and whether there is a compelling reason (safety or otherwise) to teach tables over a computer.
Are you saying that your original class did not contain tables and how to dive them? If so, what class was this?
The discussion is not whether the computer is "more precise" with a swag. The discussion revolves around an OW class and whether there is a compelling reason (safety or otherwise) to teach tables over a computer.
Are you saying that your original class did not contain tables and how to dive them? If so, what class was this?
lamont
Contributor
IwakuniDiver:
I think I found that a computer made me learn a lot more, perhaps faster, about decompression theory. I'm pretty unusual though because before I ever used a dive computer I implemented ZHL-16b in perl -- I also tend to immediately start to reverse engineer any computer I use. So I treated the computer as a way to probe how a Buhlmann algorithm behaved on real dives.
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