Another Eagles Nest fatality

[cerich]

So what if he has been diving only for 1.5years? Depends on how many dives he has done and what kind of dives were those..
I have seen people diving for 20 years and have 100-200 dives under their belts in Caribbean and i have seen divers who were diving for 1-2 years and have 200-400 dives and they are pretty good divers.
All speculations about the time he has been certified dont make any sense, everyone absorbs knowledge and learns differently, some people need to get better alot more time than others

he was a full time CEO of multiple companies, Even if he managed to dive like a madman if he exceeded 150 dives a year I would be shocked. Plus he did at least 8 courses during that period, that sucks alot of time for experience gaining outside class away

Truthfully, it's not just number or length of dives but also what type of dives. Dealing with situations that creep up in non instructional diving is vastly different generally than the instructor induced issues of training, and the mindset is different.

But ya know what? I am appalled at the speed of progression, appalled at what I have heard as regards to the "culture" of the shop he did his training with and disgusted with the full cave divers that felt it was OK to do EN with a cavern certified diver. But I can be as appalled as I want, I am also still pretty certain it was a medical issue. Possibly (much lower probability in my mind but possible) equipment issue.

 

[tbone1004]

I don't suppose there's any evidence implicating blood thinners and/or history of high BP?

no way we would have that any time soon, will have to wait until autopsy to be published unless one of his friends releases it, which is unlikely and not particularly polite...

to @cerich 's point, there is not only the number of dives aspect which if he was CEO of an investment banking firm were probably a bunch of dives over a week, then probably several months before he was in the water again, but there is a time aspect that is required for muscle memory to set in. This is not just a number of dives things, but also a time thing. You are arguably better off doing say 150 dives over 12 months, then doing 150 dives over 6 months in my experience. Your body just doesn't have time to let anything really set in and being natural and you have to have that time for everything to become second nature so you don't have to focus on it or think about it. Too much too soon if you are trying to gain experience

I don't think that in 18 months regardless of how much you dive that you would be at the point of being able to do this kind of a dive on that kind of equipment. There are certainly some exceptions to the rule, but as a rule, I don't think it's a good idea and as an instructor, I would certainly have some serious reservations about a student trying to progress that fast. Granted, PADI thinks it is acceptable to have divers become instructors after 6 months, so there's that...

 

[bumcikaz]

he was a full time CEO of multiple companies, Even if he managed to dive like a madman if he exceeded 150 dives a year I would be shocked. Plus he did at least 8 courses during that period, that sucks alot of time for experience gaining outside class away

Truthfully, it's not just number or length of dives but also what type of dives. Dealing with situations that creep up in non instructional diving is vastly different generally than the instructor induced issues of training, and the mindset is different.

But ya know what? I am appalled at the speed of progression, appalled at what I have heard as regards to the "culture" of the shop he did his training with and disgusted with the full cave divers that felt it was OK to do EN with a cavern certified diver. But I can be as appalled as I want, I am also still pretty certain it was a medical issue. Possibly (much lower probability in my mind but possible) equipment issue.

Thats what i was saying
100 20' reef dives isn't equivalent for 100 100'+ wreck or any orher dives with various conditions
Unless we know him personally or his regular dive buddy, people shouldn't bash him that hes only been certified for 18month and basically was a crappy diver, like i said everyone is different
That accident coul have happened anywhere if it was medical condition
Im sure no one would be pointing out his 18months since he was certified, if accident happened lets say on 25' reef dive

 

[CptTightPants21]

So what if he has been diving only for 1.5years? Depends on how many dives he has done and what kind of dives were those..
I have seen people diving for 20 years and have 100-200 dives under their belts in Caribbean and i have seen divers who were diving for 1-2 years and have 200-400 dives and they are pretty good divers.
All speculations about the time he has been certified dont make any sense, everyone absorbs knowledge and learns differently, some people need to get better alot more time than others

It doesn't matter, there is such a thing as too much too fast. Sometimes too much diving too quickly is bad because it compounds deficiencies and bad habits and leads to a spurious overconfidence. If you scroll down his facebook feed, you will see that he had a $9k DPV and the prism by early Feb 2016 (6-8 months after being certified).

He was not cave trained and there is the unconfirmed report that he FAILED an intro to cave class. He may have died from a medical issue, but from all the information that has come to light he was begging to become a statistic; which is a shame because he looks like a nice guy with a good family.

 

[bumcikaz]

It doesn't matter, there is such a thing as too much too fast. Sometimes too much diving too quickly is bad because it compounds deficiencies and bad habits and leads to a spurious overconfidence. If you scroll down his facebook feed, you will see that he had a $9k DPV and the prism by early Feb 2016 (6-8 months after being certified).

He was not cave trained and there is the unconfirmed report that he FAILED an intro to cave class. He may have died from a medical issue, but from all the information that has come to light he was begging to become a statistic; which is a shame because he looks like a nice guy with a good family

You get better with number of dives, not number of years
Who cares that he was not cave certified? Did he die because he got lost in the cave? Sounds like he had a medical accident on the way up with other 2 divers
Others saying that he could have gotten excited because he was in the cave, got adrenaline rush, but that can happen on any dive, anywhere
I know i would have more adrenaline if i would encounter a great white on a dive than anywhere else

 

[dmaziuk]

no way we would have that any time soon, will have to wait until autopsy to be published unless one of his friends releases it, which is unlikely and not particularly polite...

It was a more general "SIPE in non-athletes" question to DDM.

 

[boulderjohn]

This thread is supposed to be about a specific fatal incident, an incident which took place in a cave in which the deceased was not qualified to dive. There is, however, a legitimate question as to whether the fatality was related to his qualifications to be there. It could have been a medical event that would have happened that day no matter what he was doing at the time.

The more generic issues related to unqualified divers in caves, especially in caves like Eagles Nest, are very important, but they are a bit off topic for this thread. I have therefore started a new thread in the cave diving forum in which these issues can be considered without forming a digression from the true topic of this thread. I invite all who are interested to participate.

Unqualified Divers in Caves--especially ones like Eagles Nest

 

[CuzzA]

I met Charles a couple times and he really was a nice guy. Condolences to his family and friends.

I was going to keep my mouth shut, but I have to say a couple things. First, reading below it doesn't sound like any training standards were ever violated. I heard speculation that the instructor or shop lead this dive and that is false.

As far as "culture" of the shop, do you mean you're likely going to be asked to have lunch while talking diving or offered a soft drink when you come in, yep. There's that culture. Or do you mean you're going to argue with the instructor because he wants you to "do it right" and you want to do it a little different. That too, I'm guilty. Or how about the awesome price match policy they have? Why buy online when you can touch and see the product and they'll price match anyone else, even websites. Training? Well I can only speak from my experience of OW, AOW, EANx and Deep, but you're going to get a lot of emphasis on "buddy diving, gear maintenance, mindset, plan your dive and dive your plan and being smart." For example... "James, quit freaking spearfishing solo! You can do it safely with a buddy." That kind of culture??? Regardless, I'm pretty sure this is blame storming which is against the rules in this forum.

I have no idea if Mr. Odom failed Intro to Cave as this keeps coming up, but it stands to reason if the shop had a bad "culture" or didn't care about standards then if that's true he would have just passed him, right?

I don't know the exact details of what happened, but I'll say this. It sounds like a medical issue, possible CCR malfunction in which Charles did exactly what he was trained to do... Bail out. Everyone can speculate on whether or not this dive team should have been there, but this wasn't with the shop or instructor mentioned earlier.

Now as far as starting your dive career on a CCR. Well, Mr. Odom appeared to be doing pretty good in life, working in the financial services industry (like myself) gives you a pretty good knack to determine a good investment. And as all of you CC divers know, if you can get into one of these units it will pay for itself quickly in expensive gas savings. For most of us the initial cost of one of these units eliminates a large number of people. But, if I could afford one of these units, you bet your ass I'd start with one from OW. In fact, what a great way to really learn to dive your machine. All of the steps of your training done under the supervision of an instructor.

Also, I'll add in the case of Mr. Odom. We have no idea how much time he spent on his unit. Hell at his age and with a possible good fortune and being the boss, he could have cut out of the office every day and dived. We simply don't know. All speculation.

Finally, I could walk into any one of your shops right now and throw $15k on the counter and say, "Teach me how to dive this thing." And every one of you would start cutting the webbing to rig me up.

So what do you want to talk about that we can learn from this incident? Immersion Pulmonary Edema? I know little about the risks for this. Can anyone thoroughly elaborate?

 

[tbone1004]

@CuzzA with 100% certainty I know that your statement about putting the money on the table and everyone jumping at that is completely wrong. I know many instructors and shops that will turn you down if they don't get the right vibes or see the right attitude.

the statement you asked was written by @Capt Jim Wyatt and I'm sure he'll comment, but basically it means this
You can't teach any classes in Eagles Nest under the NSS-CDS unless you are already full cave certified. Period. If you teach any class other than full trimix, the diver also has to be full trimix certified.
Other agencies can do what they want, but if you are teaching an NSS-CDS class, or likely knowing Jim, are a CDS instructor, even if teaching under another agency, then you have to abide by those rules.

 

[Jack Hammer]

@CuzzA

Its been ststed a few times that shop doesn't teach Intro, if he failed the class it wasn't with them. As to the culture, cavern and OW divers have no business diving into Eagles Nest. There is too much that can go wrong there for anyone other than experienced Full cave divers to go there. It is not a dive for beginners and anyone taking beginners there shows a complete lack of safety and a poor attitude toward being thinking diver. (FTR, yes I've dove there, I'm not just regurgitating online rhetoric)