Andrea Doria and Trip Insurance

[kwinter]

So, let's look at something that happens all the time. You bought a plane ticket to go diving. Let's say to Cayman. You check the weather and it looks too rough for the Cayman Aggressor to make the crossing, but you've been on the Cayman Aggressor before, and your purpose for booking is to dive the Brac and Little Cayman. It's obvious that you will be stuck on the North Shore.

Your purpose is to dive Cayman Brac and Little Cayman, which are on the itinerary. It's obvious you won't, but if you go you will dive North Grand Cayman (again. Maybe for the third time). The boat will go out, although not to the published itinerary.

Who owes you what?

It doesn't happen often, but I have to disagree with Frank. In the example you gave, you did not purchase a dive trip from the airline. You purchased a flight, and they delivered exactly what you bought. That is completely different than buying a dive charter. And it doesn't matter about the food or the cost of fuel or the cost of staying in the marina. The COST to the provider is not the question at all, although that seems to be what Rich must have answered to Travel Guard. The VALUE to the customer is the only question that is relevant to the insured, and in this case the value received was zero. No one would be asking the Spree to refund the money in such a case. Expenses were real and were incurred by the John Jack. But the claim is a matter between the insurance company and the insured. If someone on the charter chose to not buy insurance, they should not expect to get anything back. But the purchase of trip insurance is a completely separate contract. That is one thing I liked about using the Garloo for those kind of trips. Cap'n Hank would always provide insurance as part of the charter.

 

[Wookie]

It doesn't happen often, but I have to disagree with Frank. In the example you gave, you did not purchase a dive trip from the airline. You purchased a flight, and they delivered exactly what you bought. That is completely different than buying a dive charter. And it doesn't matter about the food or the cost of fuel or the cost of staying in the marina. The COST to the provider is not the question at all, although that seems to be what Rich must have answered to Travel Guard. The VALUE to the customer is the only question that is relevant to the insured, and in this case the value received was zero. No one would be asking the Spree to refund the money in such a case. Expenses were real and were incurred by the John Jack. But the claim is a matter between the insurance company and the insured. If someone on the charter chose to not buy insurance, they should not expect to get anything back. But the purchase of trip insurance is a completely separate contract. That is one thing I liked about using the Garloo for those kind of trips. Cap'n Hank would always provide insurance as part of the charter.

Some folks, in the event that they weren't going to get what they contracted for, would choose not to make the trip rather than go on the same trip (again). This is the reason we don't change the itinerary (again) for weather. It was a D2D trip years ago when the divers said "we can dive the keys, even if we can't go to Dry Tortugas. Well, the vis was crap, and the diving was marginal, and it ended up a big mess.

So, it's obvious that you won't make the scheduled itinerary, say Aggressor will work with you to move your trip to another week or destination, you're still out airfare. I got lost in the point of my last post, The airline doesn't refund if the itinerary changes on the boat, and the insurance company won't cover the airfare.

I think Captain Hank was really smart to do that. Insurance isn't that expensive, but the hassle from divers who lose their flights from a cancelled trip is endless.

 

[RJP]

So, what is a dive worth? The diving is actually the least expensive part of managing a dive boat.

Frank - I think you and Kathy are looking at two different sides of the same coin.

As a boat operator you're looking at the COST associated with running a dive trip.
As a passenger Kathy is looking at the VALUE associated with taking a dive trip.

Of course you will incur costs on a trip, even if no dives take place. However, a diver will realize far less value on a dive trip where no dives happen.

 

[Dhboner]

The insurance company is underwriting the risk. If the trip goes without incident and the dives to the Doria happen, the insurance company makes money off the premium and everyone is happy. If the trip does not happen for whatever reason (at least any reason the insurance company stated in the coverage) the charter is paid in full and the insured party is reimbursed to the value of the policy. The insurance company loses in this case but that is what insurance is, a gamble. The insurance company weighs the risks and sets a premium cost to the diver. The diver has to decide I am prepared to be out of pocket for the premium on the chance that my dive trip might not happen...both parties are gambling. The one party who doesn't (and shouldn't gamble) is the John Jack or the Spree or any other charter. So the OP had every right to full reimbursement if that's what he/she paid premiums to underwrite.

 

[RJP]

At least we got to dive but I would expect the aggressor to offer a significant discount on a later trip; that's called good customer service.

Why would the Aggressor offer a "significant discount on a later trip" in this situation?

The "published itinerary" for the Cayman Aggressor says "The itinerary is completely dependent on the winds and weather" and the website clearly says "During the week, weather permitting, the Cayman Aggressor IV will dive the best of all three islands..."

Offering a significant discount on something as relatively iffy as the ability to make the crossing might sound like good customer service... but it seems pretty foolish to me from a business perspective.

 

[Wookie]

Frank - I think you and Kathy are looking at two different sides of the same coin.

As a boat operator you're looking at the COST associated with running a dive trip.
As a passenger Kathy is looking at the VALUE associated with taking a dive trip.

Of course you will incur costs on a trip, even if no dives take place. However, a diver will realize far less value on a dive trip where no dives happen.

What does the insurance company insure for, cost or value? I completely agree that Kathy will be disappointed and for good reason if the trip doesn't pan out. If she goes right after a hurricane, and the vis sucks, but the itinerary is correct, has the value of the trip been damaged? A reasonable person would say yes. Would the same reasonable person expect the insurance company to pay off? Would a reasonable person expect the charter operator to pay something back in the name of "Good or exceptional service"?

 

[RJP]

What does the insurance company insure for, cost or value? I completely agree that Kathy will be disappointed and for good reason if the trip doesn't pan out. If she goes right after a hurricane, and the vis sucks, but the itinerary is correct, has the value of the trip been damaged? A reasonable person would say yes. Would the same reasonable person expect the insurance company to pay off? Would a reasonable person expect the charter operator to pay something back in the name of "Good or exceptional service"?

I was commenting on a post earlier in the thread. Glad to see OP got refund from insurance company... but also wonder why Rich answered the question the way he did, rather than the way you mentioned you would have answered.

But I don't think a reasonable person would expect a "vis guarantee" - especially after a hurricane - nor would I expect any insurance company to underwrite a vis insurance policy.

And no - I don't think a reasonable person should expect a refund in the name of good service in that situation.

 

[bl6394]

What does the insurance company insure for, cost or value? I completely agree that Kathy will be disappointed and for good reason if the trip doesn't pan out. If she goes right after a hurricane, and the vis sucks, but the itinerary is correct, has the value of the trip been damaged? A reasonable person would say yes. Would the same reasonable person expect the insurance company to pay off? Would a reasonable person expect the charter operator to pay something back in the name of "Good or exceptional service"?

I will only speak for this policy. The insurance was for the value of any pre-paid costs - not delivered - due to a covered reason (such as weather.) Pre-paid costs for this trip are strictly the charter fees: $1750. Whatever value was delivered - would be deducted from the payable part of this claim.

They would not include my gasoline driving a trailer with 1800 pounds of dive gear, cylinders, and compressed gas from St. Louis, MO to Point Judith, RI. Nor would the 700 cf feet of Technical Grade Helium be covered. Lost time. Any other incidentals. My costs for this trip approached $5000, 8 days of vacation, and 2200 miles on my truck.

Nor did I get the worst of it. My dive buddy from Jersey (in the United Kingdon) flew in from the UK, rented all his gear, and purchased his gas fills locally. This was a super expensive trip for him - and he indicated that trip insurance is not available in his part of the world... He is looking at a total loss. Heck - I was even able able to scavenge most of the helium I had pumped - and re-purpose it. I only lost about $100 in helium (my wholesale cost).

I consider myself very lucky. And I met some really wonderful people from all over the world. It was not a total loss. Hope I have better luck next year.

Cheers,

 

[kwinter]

To bl6394 - If you had added the cost of those items you mentioned to the trip coverage policy, they might have been covered as well. It's just like putting your own lengthy vacation together instead of choosing a prepackaged tour. You can book several airline tickets, cruises, car rentals, museum tickets, etc. and add them to the policy as you go. If your trip gets cancelled for a covered reason, anything you paid that is non refundable comes back to you.

As far as the charter itself goes, I will go one further. If I sign up for a charter and pay the fee and then on the day of the trip I feel the vis will be bad because of storms the night before, that's just tough luck if the charter goes without me. I should have no expectation of a refund. If we all show up at the dock and the captain cancels because of suspected bad vis, then all money should be refunded. Now here's the tough one that I've experienced myself. The charter goes out and then the DM or crew drops in to set the hook and determines that the vis and conditions are so bad as to be unsafe. The captain bans diving and heads back to port. What should happen next? I had a situation where no refund was offered, and not even the offer of an exchange for a future trip. Nothing. Zip. Zilch. What about that situation, Frank? The boat incurred costs because the captain decided to try. But it was also his decision not to allow diving or to try a suitable alternative site.

 

[KathyV]

Why would the Aggressor offer a "significant discount on a later trip" in this situation?

The "published itinerary" for the Cayman Aggressor says "The itinerary is completely dependent on the winds and weather" and the website clearly says "During the week, weather permitting, the Cayman Aggressor IV will dive the best of all three islands..."

Offering a significant discount on something as relatively iffy as the ability to make the crossing might sound like good customer service... but it seems pretty foolish to me from a business perspective.

The Aggressor site also recognizes the risks of weather-related issues and the potential impact on their guests. They offer a Storm Check guarantee for diving trips affected by named weather events. They also strongly encourage passengers to take DAN coverage and travel insurance due to possible medical problems, weather issues, or other disruptions. We have taken 5 Aggressor/Dancer cruises and I took DAN coverage and travel insurance as they recommended.

I would not blame the Aggressor for weather-related disappointments, but I would expect them to recognize my disappointment and take action to assist loyal customers in such an event. They offer sales and specials throughout the year; why would they not offer a discount to customers that had a disappointing experience although it was nobody's fault? After all they want you to come back, and it is a heck of a lot better staying dry in a hotel/resort on land than being stuck on a boat in bad weather IMO. That might make me hesitate to risk everything on a liveaboard trip in the future.

I feel that it's just good customer service. Even if I wasn't able to take advantage of their offer, I would be happier knowing that they had graciously made the gesture, because it means that they value me as a customer. If I was able to take advantage of the discount, I would be careful to tip based on the original price of the trip.

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