Andrea Doria and Trip Insurance

[bl6394]

A questions related to charters and trip insurance. Seemed like the travel forum was the right place.

I chartered a spot to dive the Andrea Doria in July. For those that don't know - this is one of the riskier activities that one can engage in. The wreck in 90 miles out in the Atlantic - so weather is freqently a concern. This charter was for 7 divers. I paid $1750 for what should have been a 12 hour ride to the site, 2 and a half days diving it (with up to 5 opportunities) and a 12 hour ride back. Given the risk - I purchased a trip insurance polity from Travel Guard (AIG).

Weather did not cooperate. On the day we were to leave - the captian decided to delay a day because the weather (seas) were unfavorable. The next day - in the afternoon, the captain announced the charter was cancelled. Later that evening, he decided that the charter was back on, and we left the following morning in rolling seas. We arrived at the site at 4PM in the afternoon, and the captain determined the conditions were not dive-able. At 7PM, the captain cut the mooring line and returned to port. No diving was permitted in the 3 hours we were on site.

I filed a claim with Travel Gaurd, and they asked me a question I had a hard time answering. "What were the value of the dives, versus the value of the rest of the trip delivered." The captain asserted, in a reply to Travel Gaurd / AIG, that his charter delivered $1250 of value in the previously described events - taking us to and from the site. He asserted that the dives were worth $500. This is what Travel Guard would like to pay on the claim.

I may be niave - but I'm not sure that a diving trip with no diving has the sort of value the captain asserted. Not does he (or anyone else) advertise or sell 24 hour boat rides to the Doria. I would assert the value delivered was much less - although I agree the expense for this excursion was obviously high.

For those of you with experience, or with a JD / Esq after your name, is this a disputable claim or did I simply misunderstand the products I purchased.

Thanks,

 

[KathyV]

That's absurd! The whole purpose of the trip was to dive and you didn't get to dive!

 

[bl6394]

I'm not going to delete the thread. But I will advise that after escalating this matter to a supervisor at AIG - they just agreed that the total value of the trip was lost - and they are going to pay the total value of $1750. Got the call right after the post.

We'll leave the thread in case anyone else runs into similar circumstances down the road.

Cheers,

 

[KathyV]

I'm not going to delete the thread. But I will advise that after escalating this matter to a supervisor at AIG - they just agreed that the total value of the trip was lost - and they are going to pay the total value of $1750. Got the call right after the post. We'll leave the thread in case anyone else runs into similar circumstances down the road. Cheers,

That's great news! We have purchased Travel Guard insurance for our upcoming recreational dive trip to Little Cayman; so I am very glad to learn that they have done the right thing.

Sorry you didn't get to dive the Doria!

 

[Wookie]

Interesting post, and I completely disagree with you, Kathy. If you board the boat and eat the food and the crew provides service, it doesn't matter if the boat is on a dive site or at the marina. In fact, it's more expensive at the marina, because the boat is paying marina fees instead of being out on a buoy. The trip is bought and paid for. The crew (my largest expense) has to be paid just like you were on the dive site, the food (my third largest expense) has to be prepared and served and dishes washed, and you still need to be kept safe.

So, we tend to cancel 24-36 hours before a trip if the weather at any time during that trip looks like the trip won't make. I can't speak for the management of the John Jack, but in our case, if a trip cancels for weather we provide a full refund for the trip. Then we get yelled at for not compensating for airfare. In that case, I don't buy the food, I don't pay the crew, and the diesel fuel will sit in the tanks for the next trip. No one gets hurt except the crew. They don't want to be out in crap weather either, though, so it isn't that bad.

So, what is a dive worth? The diving is actually the least expensive part of managing a dive boat. For Rich to give you a credit of $500 for a potential 5 dives is extremely generous in my opinion. I get that it's a tech trip, and therefore more expensive than a recreational trip. When Travelguard asks me the same question, or if we are refunding due to weather beyond our control that pops up, we consider the value of the dives missed to be $25 each, for a recreational trip. I've never come up against the question on a tech trip, except the last one, where we ran in from TS Erika.

Big Boy divers understand that weather is something beyond the control of the vessel owner or captain. If you go to a resort in the islands and the weather is too rough to dive, do you expect a full refund after sleeping in the bed, eating the food, and walking the beach? No, you expect a refund for the dive package. Why is a liveaboard any different? You ate the food, you slept in the bunk. Sure the purpose was to dive. Sometimes crap happens. Savvy travelers learn to live with the pitfalls and foibles of world travel. Not all vacations are guaranteed and that has truly become a problem in the travel industry.

 

[KathyV]

If you buy comprehensive trip insurance for a dive trip and you don't get to dive; then the insurance company should reimburse your full trip expenses. That's why you reserved the trip and that's why you bought insurance. No one is saying that the resort or boat shouldn't receive payment for their expenses, but big boy dive operators should also understand that there are risks in offering weather dependent services.

 

[Wookie]

No one is saying that the boat captain (or resort) shouldn't keep the payment for their expenses and the services provided. But if you buy comprehensive trip insurance for a dive trip and you don't get to dive; then the insurance company should reimburse your expenses. That's why you buy insurance - big boy divers should understand that too.

So, let's look at something that happens all the time. You bought a plane ticket to go diving. Let's say to Cayman. You check the weather and it looks too rough for the Cayman Aggressor to make the crossing, but you've been on the Cayman Aggressor before, and your purpose for booking is to dive the Brac and Little Cayman. It's obvious that you will be stuck on the North Shore.

Your purpose is to dive Cayman Brac and Little Cayman, which are on the itinerary. It's obvious you won't, but if you go you will dive North Grand Cayman (again. Maybe for the third time). The boat will go out, although not to the published itinerary.

Who owes you what?

 

[KathyV]

Interesting post, and I completely disagree with you, Kathy. If you board the boat and eat the food and the crew provides service, it doesn't matter if the boat is on a dive site or at the marina. In fact, it's more expensive at the marina, because the boat is paying marina fees instead of being out on a buoy. The trip is bought and paid for. The crew (my largest expense) has to be paid just like you were on the dive site, the food (my third largest expense) has to be prepared and served and dishes washed, and you still need to be kept safe.

So, we tend to cancel 24-36 hours before a trip if the weather at any time during that trip looks like the trip won't make. I can't speak for the management of the John Jack, but in our case, if a trip cancels for weather we provide a full refund for the trip. Then we get yelled at for not compensating for airfare. In that case, I don't buy the food, I don't pay the crew, and the diesel fuel will sit in the tanks for the next trip. No one gets hurt except the crew. They don't want to be out in crap weather either, though, so it isn't that bad.

So, what is a dive worth? The diving is actually the least expensive part of managing a dive boat. For Rich to give you a credit of $500 for a potential 5 dives is extremely generous in my opinion. I get that it's a tech trip, and therefore more expensive than a recreational trip. When Travelguard asks me the same question, or if we are refunding due to weather beyond our control that pops up, we consider the value of the dives missed to be $25 each, for a recreational trip. I've never come up against the question on a tech trip, except the last one, where we ran in from TS Erika.

Big Boy divers understand that weather is something beyond the control of the vessel owner or captain. If you go to a resort in the islands and the weather is too rough to dive, do you expect a full refund after sleeping in the bed, eating the food, and walking the beach? No, you expect a refund for the dive package. Why is a liveaboard any different? You ate the food, you slept in the bunk. Sure the purpose was to dive. Sometimes crap happens. Savvy travelers learn to live with the pitfalls and foibles of world travel. Not all vacations are guaranteed and that has truly become a problem in the travel industry.

So, let's look at something that happens all the time. You bought a plane ticket to go diving. Let's say to Cayman. You check the weather and it looks too rough for the Cayman Aggressor to make the crossing, but you've been on the Cayman Aggressor before, and your purpose for booking is to dive the Brac and Little Cayman. It's obvious that you will be stuck on the North Shore.

Your purpose is to dive Cayman Brac and Little Cayman, which are on the itinerary. It's obvious you won't, but if you go you will dive North Grand Cayman (again. Maybe for the third time). The boat will go out, although not to the published itinerary.

Who owes you what?

At least we got to dive but I would expect the aggressor to offer a significant discount on a later trip; that's called good customer service.

 

[bl6394]

Frank - I agree with you completely. I expected nothing back from the John Jack. Nor did the John Jack offer a credit of $500 to me. They assigned a value to the dives of $500 for the purposes of my insurance claim. I'm not sure what means they used to do that. This particular excursion is not easy to subdivide because as a practical matter - people don't just buy a trip to the Doria - and not dive for $1250. Or dive 2 out of 5 times for an additional cost of $100 each dive. These imaginary dive products have never been advertised - and I doubt they would ever be sold. You are paying for the opportunity for the experience as a whole. We agree in this case - the diesel fuel has been burnt, the food purchased, and the boat's time allocated. Nothing was due from the John Jack.

Recalling again, the question was - what is the insurance company on the hook for in these circumstances. If they insured a dive trip for trip interruption and that dive trip substantially / completely interrupted because of weather - what is the claim worth. In this case - I was successful in arguing that the whole amount of the insured value was due. If you disagree - I'm glad you were not my claims adjuster (or her manager in this case.)

This is why we purchase insurance. As a Big Boy diver, I could have chosen to assume the risk of the weather blowing me out (or 78 other possible interruptions). Or I can purchase insurance against those possibilities. In this case - the insurance was a wise investment.

Regards

 

[Wookie]

I agree with you, and I'm happy you got a full refund, Brian. And I would not be your adjuster, but as I said, Rich (and I) would assign a value to your diving (as opposed to the whole experience). Rich assigned a value of $100 per dive. In this event, and it happened to me during Bahamas shark diving last year, which is another very expensive trip, I took the total cost of the trip and divided it by the number of offered dives and that's the number I sent to the insurance company (remember, I'm on your side when it comes to the insurance company). In this case, for a $1,750 trip with 5 potential dives with none offered, I would have said that the dives were worth $350 each. At the end of the day, it's all good, you got your full refund, and you got to sleep on the John Jack.