An Open Letter of Personal Perspective to the Diving Industry by NetDoc

[scubadada]

More importantly, the kid was never weighted properly and was never given the rudimentary skills that are a part of a safe DSD program. Don't get distracted by all the red herrings from the elephant sitting in the middle of the room. After all, I have seen many, many over weighted students here in the Keys that were still safe. Let's face it, for most of us, if you can kneel easily in the sand: you've got too much weight. There are a couple of instances where that might be attractive, but normally it's not. The over weighting is simply a part of the overall pattern/problem. Either way, it was never addressed by the letter. I can't say for any other case, but in this one, it's my perception that PADI got it right. How can anyone, in good conscience and who has a modicum of understanding, slam PADI for removing this guy as an instructor? They did the right thing... at least here.

The gross overweighting is a blatant, intuitively obvious error, yet folks are willing to defend it. That's to say nothing of the other indefensible errors

 

[danvolker]

The gross overweighting is a blatant, intuitively obvious error, yet folks are willing to defend it. That's to say nothing of the other indefensible errors

The gross overweighting of an almost helpless student diver, is in itself, a rampant problem in instruction with high volume dive classes today...I am thinking that FAR TOO MANY INSTRUCTORS CONSIDER THIS AN ACCEPTABLE "TRADE OFF" TO GET A CLASS DONE IN THE AMOUNT OF TIME ALLOTTED.

Show up at the BHB Marine Park this weekend, and you could find dozens of students STUPIDLY over weighted. It will happen EVERY weekend.
The fact that we don't have 100% agreement of all instructors on this thread, that gross/negligent overweighting should have caused the agency to terminate the instructor---is a huge problem.
Our own house, at SB, carries the sickness of this disease.

 

[Wookie]

Yes. Your thread is all about Brian unfairly bashing PADI. I'll even concede that Brian should not have bashed PADI in the way he did, but it sure brought the real issue to the table, which *may* have been his intention all along. I have spoken to Brian numerous times before, during, after DEMA and even recently. Have you spoken to him since you wrote your missive? Have you investigated the underlying causes? BoulderJohn brought it up yesterday. He hit the nail exactly. His question (and I'm paraphrasing because I'm lazy) is "what should PADI have done?" and he hits the subject exactly.

Have you spoken to Peter Mayer lately? I have done that, too, but I also spoke to him as this was happening. I spoke to him at least every couple of months. Peter made a bold statement. His statement was that he wasn't going to settle frivolous lawsuits anymore, because it encourages more frivolous lawsuits. I applauded that stand, I applauded it then, and I applaud it today. Now, perhaps this particular lawsuit isn't frivolous. I'm not a lawyer, and I slept on a boat last night. But maybe it is. We've heard lots to blame the instructor for, and rightly so. We've heard lots to blame the parents for, and rightly so. We've heard lots to blame the pediatrician and his PA for, and rightly so. Again, I'm not a lawyer, but I feel that a skilled attorney could make a case that the parents and the physician (and his staff) were major at fault. Yes, the physician was dismissed because of jurisdictional reasons, but maybe that would work in a skilled attorneys favor, shovel blame on someone with no liability to protect his client.

But PADI wouldn't play that game. I'm sure they had their reasons. As Hornsby said in one letter, the attorney (Concannon) was setting up to attack the standards PADI was using. Then I read the letter that Hornsby wrote to the court outlined earlier in this thread. What I read was: "We follow all RSTC and ISO standards. Everyone else does too." I don't find that an affirmative defense. It would be the same as "I follow the standards set by my scuba shop. All of the other instructors in this shop do too". That's great if the shop's standards are high, but what if the shops standards suck? So it boils down to (in my boat captain's mind) the RSTC and ISO standards suck, but we're going to follow them, because everyone else does.

Now, Peter Meyer didn't have a seat at the RSTC table, but I'd bet that Willis insured 1/3 of the world's instructors. And Willis couldn't effect the RSTC, except through Brian Carney. But Willis (in the form of Peter Meyer) said "I think the DSD ratios suck, and we're not going to allow 1/3 of the instructors in the world to follow them any more."

BOOM!! That's bold. Even Hornsby says that conducting DSD is more dangerous (folks are more likely to be hurt participating) than other scuba programs. /BOOM!!

So now, PADI and their lawyers and underwriters aren't welcome at the table. That's got to throw them in a tizzy. Concannon (being paid by Willis) is going after the ratios. For some reason PADI is hanging on to those ratios with both hands and a foot, and refuse to drop them to 2:1. I'm sure they have their reasons that make sense to them. But you know, I remember a letter from Richardson stating that PADI would never ever ever (with a little foot stamp) support solo diving. If you don't remember it, I'll dig it out. I'll even wave it in your face, along with my self reliant diver card.

So, to answer BoulderJohn's question, When PADI expelled their instructor, then wouldn't stand with Willis to defend the instructor they had just kicked out, when they had (what Willis felt) was a winnable case, you are correct, they had to come in on the side of the plaintiffs to defend the standard.

Now I'll toss one back. What makes PADI so in love with the 4:1 student to teacher ratio for the most admittedly dangerous thing we can teach? Why will they not reduce it to 2:1 as Willis imposed on 1/3 of the dive instructors on the planet? And forgive me if I'm wrong, I assume 1/3 because 90% of the liveaboard dive boats, all of the SDI shops, and PADI Australasia all use Willis. If I made an assumption that's out of line, I apologize. But the question remains. Why wouldn't PADI (the 800 lb gorilla of certification agencies) stand with Willis (the 800 lb gorilla of insurance companies) to a) fight this lawsuit, which I believe is winnable and b) reduce the ratios of the program which is most likely to result in a student casualty?

Pete, I challenge you to speak to Carney. I'm betting you haven't since this letter and thread was started. I'm betting he will speak to you. I challenge you to speak to Concannon. He may speak to you. His loss if he doesn't. I also challenge you to speak to Peter Mayer. What he has to say will open your eyes to a lot of things that you don't know. As far as I can tell, the only person you have spoken to that is intimate with this case is Hornsby. I suspect he's biased.

---------- Post added January 5th, 2015 at 11:19 AM ----------

The gross overweighting is a blatant, intuitively obvious error, yet folks are willing to defend it. That's to say nothing of the other indefensible errors

The gross overweighting of an almost helpless student diver, is in itself, a rampant problem in instruction with high volume dive classes today...I am thinking that FAR TOO MANY INSTRUCTORS CONSIDER THIS AN ACCEPTABLE "TRADE OFF" TO GET A CLASS DONE IN THE AMOUNT OF TIME ALLOTTED.

Show up at the BHB Marine Park this weekend, and you could find dozens of students STUPIDLY over weighted. It will happen EVERY weekend.
The fact that we don't have 100% agreement of all instructors on this thread, that gross/negligent overweighting should have caused the agency to terminate the instructor---is a huge problem.
Our own house, at SB, carries the sickness of this disease.

I seem to be out of likes for the day. But I like both of these.

 

[boulderjohn]

OK, I have tried to look at this from another angle. I have a 5mm full suit and it required 14 lb to make it neutral. I'm 71" tall and 220 lb. Estimating the child to be 62" and 150 lb and using this surface area calculator (Body surface area calculator - BSA) would give the child about 20% less surface area so a 5mm jumpsuit on him would need about 11 lb. I estimate a 2-piece FJ adds about 50% more neoprene so that would be 15lb and adjusting from 5mm to 7mm should add another 40% which would put the childs 7mm FJ at 21 lb. But those are all for neoprene buoyancy at sea level (1 ATM) and Bear Lake is at about .8 ATM) Unrestricted gas expansion would therefore add another 25% or you could go with something somewhat less if you assume the expansion is restricted. That would put the 7mm FJ in the 25 to 28 lb range (and a 5mm FJ around 18 lb).

When I am properly weighted, I have to add 3 to 5lb to kneel solidly on the bottom. (Well, at stingray city it took an extra 2 lb that I expected and had to add a rock to be able to kneel and play with the rays.) The way I see it, is if it was a 5mm, the child was fairly heavy and if it was a 7mm FJ then it probably was right about what he needed.

Somebody want to check my math and my reasoning? Zippsy - maybe you could do that.

EDIT: Good to sleep on things like this. The addition of weight to facilitate kneeling on the bottom is unnecessary due to wetsuit compression. My experience was in tropical water without neoprene. So 23 to 25 should be about right for the 7mm FJ.

Always great to see demed's valuable contributions.

The boy reportedly weight 120 pounds. I gave you links to a number of different scuba weighting calculation web sites, none of which would put him at more than 15 pounds. Can you tell me what is wrong with those sites? Can you locate any reputable set of weighting guidelines that come remotely close to your personal calculations?

---------- Post added January 5th, 2015 at 09:33 AM ----------

So, to answer BoulderJohn's question, When PADI expelled their instructor, then wouldn't stand with Willis to defend the instructor they had just kicked out, when they had (what Willis felt) was a winnable case, you are correct, they had to come in on the side of the plaintiffs to defend the standard....

Why wouldn't PADI (the 800 lb gorilla of certification agencies) stand with Willis (the 800 lb gorilla of insurance companies) to a) fight this lawsuit, which I believe is winnable...

How can you stand with someone who is working against you and defending itself in a lawsuit by telling the others that it was you who was at fault?

You blame PADI for not standing with Willis. PADI blames Willis for not standing by them. In fact, that failure on the part of Willis is a major point in Hornsby's response. They said that when Willis blamed them, they had no choice but to defend themselves.

---------- Post added January 5th, 2015 at 09:35 AM ----------

But PADI wouldn't play that game. I'm sure they had their reasons. As Hornsby said in one letter, the attorney (Concannon) was setting up to attack the standards PADI was using. Then I read the letter that Hornsby wrote to the court outlined earlier in this thread. What I read was: "We follow all RSTC and ISO standards. Everyone else does too." I don't find that an affirmative defense. It would be the same as "I follow the standards set by my scuba shop. All of the other instructors in this shop do too". That's great if the shop's standards are high, but what if the shops standards suck? So it boils down to (in my boat captain's mind) the RSTC and ISO standards suck, but we're going to follow them, because everyone else does.

Now, Peter Meyer didn't have a seat at the RSTC table, but I'd bet that Willis insured 1/3 of the world's instructors. And Willis couldn't effect the RSTC, except through Brian Carney. But Willis (in the form of Peter Meyer) said "I think the DSD ratios suck, and we're not going to allow 1/3 of the instructors in the world to follow them any more."

SDI is part of the RSTC. Perhaps Carney should describe all their efforts to change those standards prior to this event. I haven't seen any mention of those efforts so far.

 

[redacted]

The boy reportedly weight 120 pounds. I gave you links to a number of different scuba weighting calculation web sites, none of which would put him at more than 15 pounds. Can you tell me what is wrong with those sites? Can you locate any reputable set of weighting guidelines that come remotely close to your personal calculations?

I thought I saw his weight at 150 in Dr. S's statement, but the method could be adjusted to 120.

What I see wrong with those sites is they appear to underestimate the weight requirements for 7mm FJ. Like I said before, rather than rely on such a weight estimator, I test the buoyant of each piece of neoprene I use so getting my weight right when I change my thermal protection is pretty easy. I am absolutely sure my 5mm full suit required 14 lb (when new); so with that start point I wanted to see where it took me. My conclusion, based on that is the child was grossly over-weighted if he was in a 5mm suit but not so much over-weighted if he used a 7mm FJ.

There seem to be lots of conflicting "facts" and claims that need to be worked out to understand just what the instructor did wrong besides putting himself and his students in a situation he could not handle when 2 problems occurred.


EDIT: Based on Omission's input below, using 123 lb and 59 inches in a 7mm FJ would bring the weight requirement down to 23 t0 25 lb. Using 117 pounds and 55" takes it down to about 20 lb.

 

[Wookie]

SDI is part of the RSTC. Perhaps Carney should describe all their efforts to change those standards prior to this event. I haven't seen any mention of those efforts so far.

You might call him up and ask him. I believe you're associated with TDI. It's what I did. I believe I described those efforts in an earlier post and got crapped all over by other participants and told I know nothing about it. It's funny, when I lose my cool and crap on someone blindly supporting PADI, I get moderated. When someone craps on me, it stands. Why do you think I'm a little gun shy in this thread?

You want his office number or cell number?

 

[boulderjohn]

I thought I saw his weight at 150 in Dr. S's statement, but the method could be adjusted to 120.

What I see wrong with those sites is they appear to underestimate the weight requirements for 7mm FJ. Like I said before, rather than rely on such a weight estimator, I test the buoyant of each piece of neoprene I use so getting my weight right when I change my thermal protection is pretty easy. I am absolutely sure my 5mm full suit required 14 lb (when new); so with that start point I wanted to see where it took me. My conclusion, based on that is the child was grossly over-weighted if he was in a 5mm suit but not so much over-weighted if he used a 7mm FJ.

There seem to be lots of conflicting "facts" and claims that need to be worked out to understand just what the instructor did wrong besides putting himself and his students in a situation he could not handle when 2 problems occurred.

I dive water at these temperatures frequently. I have done it in 7mm full suits, 7mm FJs, and dry suits. My experience tells me that the formulas overestimate the amount of weight needed. Using the standard formula for myself in this situation, I would be overweighted by more than 5 pounds.

Telling us the strange methods you use to determine your weighting needs and publishing results that give drastically different results when compared to the methods used by every organization in the scuba world does show an admirable courage of your convictions. I would nto have such courage myself. Perhaps you should publish your results in a resource that will draw the attraction of all the agencies in the world so that they will learn from you how very wrong they have been for so many decades. It will allow them to change all their weighting guidelines. It will allow them to change the way student divers are taught to do weight checks.

 

[tursiops]

I am absolutely sure my 5mm full suit required 14 lb (when new)

How did you determine this?

 

[boulderjohn]

It's funny, when I lose my cool and crap on someone blindly supporting PADI, I get moderated. When someone craps on me, it stands. Why do you think I'm a little gun shy in this thread?

The only time I know of that you were moderated when you tried to crap on people in this thread was when you posted potentially embarrassing information from the private lives of individuals participating in this thread, information that does not have anything whatsoever to do with the topic of this thread or even scuba in general. When has anyone similarly "crapped" on you? Every comment I see that opposes your statements refers to the factual content of your statements. If someone has made a derogatory reference to your character of the kind you have made of others, and if it was missed by the moderators, please report it so that it can be handled appropriately.

 

[redacted]

How did you determine this?

In my pool. Mesh bag attached to single article of neoprene. Add lead weights to the bag, venting any trapped air from garment as I go. When it sinks (breaks the surface), I vent again; and then remove a small weight (one lb) and verify it will again float. I then log the results and work from there. I find it to be quite accurate and helpful.