An Open Letter of Personal Perspective to the Diving Industry by NetDoc

[Zippsy]

I don't think V&B, Willis or V-Insurance are ever out of pocket when there is a loss. They are just agents / brokers, not the insurers, no?

 

[Wookie]

I don't think V&B, Willis or V-Insurance are ever out of pocket when there is a loss. They are just agents / brokers, not the insurers, no?

That is correct. The Willis dive program from Willis Canada was underwritten by the Catlin Syndicate of Lloyd's.

 

[demed]

What is the lie, that PADIs lawyers were sanctioned, or that I don't understand why?

---------- Post added December 28th, 2014 at 10:16 AM ----------


They only insure PRRA and individual members. Willis Canada insured boats, members, shops, basically anyone who had a liability in the dive business, so it isn't exactly an apples to apples comparison.

but because you say it doesn't make it so.

You clearly do not understand the PADI lawyer was sanctioned $2,000 to compensate between 1 and 2 billed\billable hours of extra work by the plaintiff's attorney to respond to PADI

Sure, if Willis as the PADI partner in Asia Pacific region doesn't insure boats, cats and dogs but o-n-l-y stores and individual members the conspiracy can go on...

 

[Zippsy]

You clearly do not understand the PADI lawyer was sanctioned $2,000 to compensate between 1 and 2 billed\billable hours of extra work by the plaintiff's attorney to respond to PADI
...

Frank said that he didn't understand that. You say he doesn't understand that. So he must not have been lying after all, right?

 

[Omisson]

Additional "twist" to the thread. (And moderators- feel free to move it if needed- but it stemmed out of this thread's discussion of standards violations of the instructor).

So over the past few days -offline- I received a series of "questions" from a diver who participated in this thread-about the fact that I raised as a separate violation of industry standards, the tank in question's hydro on the tank expired in 1996 and there was no evidence of a VIP. Of course I mentioned in my post here that the child having been given the tank to use in the dive was a violation of Federal law (which technically it may not be depending on how the statute is construed and if the instructor filled the tank, transported the tank, etc.), and so the offline discussion was centered around the fact that the law in the CFR, §173.32 Requirements for the use of portable tanks. does not expressly prohibit the "use" of the tanks out of hydro, but only the filling and transport of the tanks (one is left to wonder how a 1996 tank could have air in it after 20 years... or how it got to the lake to be dove).

Without getting into all the details, the diver who emailed me saw no safety issue in the student's use of an out of hydro, un-inspected tank. Now I know PADI includes a section in Open Water training on looking for the VIP and Hydro stamp- and trains divers that diving without them being current is prohibited- but do other agencies not teach this? Or do other agencies not discuss the consequences of un-inspected and out of hydro tanks from a safety perspective?

In my classes have stressed the dangers of metal fatigue, valve rupture, and rust through accidents that are caused by diving and using such tanks, but the diver I have been discussing it with doesn't see a danger. It is frightening to think this isn't being taught- and am wondering what the experiences of other instructors are in this regard.

Beyond the graphic pictures of tank failures and the engineering obviousness of the dangers - do new divers today really not understand what a metal container pressurized to 3500 pounds can do if it fails?

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Additional "twist" to the thread. (And moderators- feel free to move it if needed- but it stemmed out of this thread's discussion of standards violations of the instructor).

So over the past few days -offline- I received a series of "questions" from a diver who participated in this thread-about the fact that I raised as a separate violation of industry standards, the tank in question's hydro on the tank expired in 1996 and there was no evidence of a VIP. Of course I mentioned in my post here that the child having been given the tank to use in the dive was a violation of Federal law (which technically it may not be depending on how the statute is construed and if the instructor filled the tank, transported the tank, etc.), and so the offline discussion was centered around the fact that the law in the CFR, §173.32 Requirements for the use of portable tanks. does not expressly prohibit the "use" of the tanks out of hydro, but only the filling and transport of the tanks (one is left to wonder how a 1996 tank could have air in it after 20 years... or how it got to the lake to be dove).

Without getting into all the details, the diver who emailed me saw no safety issue in the student's use of an out of hydro, un-inspected tank. Now I know PADI includes a section in Open Water training on looking for the VIP and Hydro stamp- and trains divers that diving without them being current is prohibited- but do other agencies not teach this? Or do other agencies not discuss the consequences of un-inspected and out of hydro tanks from a safety perspective?

In my classes have stressed the dangers of metal fatigue, valve rupture, and rust through accidents that are caused by diving and using such tanks, but the diver I have been discussing it with doesn't see a danger. It is frightening to think this isn't being taught- and am wondering what the experiences of other instructors are in this regard.

Beyond the graphic pictures of tank failures and the engineering obviousness of the dangers - do new divers today really not understand what a metal container pressurized to 3500 pounds can do if it fails?

I did not know that PADI prohibits Ow divers from using tanks that do not have stickers on them.

 

[clint@uniquescuba.com]

This Thread Has Gotten Totally Awesome!

 

[Omisson]

Seriously?

Do I really have to do this sort of remedial discussion of agency standards?
[h=2]PADI How to Choose Your Scuba Tank[/h] Whether you own one tank, multiple cylinders or none depends on your dive activities and location. To select the right cylinder for you, think about size and capacity.

1. Larger is usually better, unless you’re a smaller person and have to carry the tank a long way. Ask the dive professional at your PADI Dive Center or Resort for advice.
2. Once you know the size you want, then choose steel or aluminum.
3. Choose a yoke or DIN valve, based on your regulator.
4. Think about a tank boot or mesh protector, and get extra o-rings.
5. Make sure your new tank has a visual inspection decal, or an enriched air inspection decal (if you plan to use it for enriched air diving).

[h=2]Take Care of Your Scuba Tank[/h]

• Always block or secure your tank so it can’t fall over easily or roll around, which can damage it, other equipment or you.
• Besides rinsing your cylinder and valve with fresh water and storing it in a cool place, don’t allow it to completely empty – always store it with air inside to keep moisture out.
• Have your tank visually inspected annually and pressure tested as required.
• Follow maintenance considerations according to the manufacturer’s instructions.

DIVE THEORY Exam- PADI IDC Exam Reference
These marking should always be checked before filling.
This is important even in different countries with different tank markings.
Cylinders manufactured, have specification stamped on the cylinder which include Working Pressure, Test Pressure, Data of Manufacture, Capacity and Weight.
Before filling a scuba tank with air, you should always check the tank markings, specifically looking for a current hydrostatic and pressure test date and maximum capacity / pressure. Don’t overfill scuba cylinders.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Seriously?

Do I really have to do this sort of remedial discussion of agency standards?
PADI How to Choose Your Scuba Tank

Whether you own one tank, multiple cylinders or none depends on your dive activities and location. To select the right cylinder for you, think about size and capacity.

1. Larger is usually better, unless you’re a smaller person and have to carry the tank a long way. Ask the dive professional at your PADI Dive Center or Resort for advice.
2. Once you know the size you want, then choose steel or aluminum.
3. Choose a yoke or DIN valve, based on your regulator.
4. Think about a tank boot or mesh protector, and get extra o-rings.
5. Make sure your new tank has a visual inspection decal, or an enriched air inspection decal (if you plan to use it for enriched air diving).

Take Care of Your Scuba Tank

• Always block or secure your tank so it can’t fall over easily or roll around, which can damage it, other equipment or you.
• Besides rinsing your cylinder and valve with fresh water and storing it in a cool place, don’t allow it to completely empty – always store it with air inside to keep moisture out.
• Have your tank visually inspected annually and pressure tested as required.
• Follow maintenance considerations according to the manufacturer’s instructions.

DIVE THEORY Exam- PADI IDC Exam Reference
These marking should always be checked before filling.
This is important even in different countries with different tank markings.
Cylinders manufactured, have specification stamped on the cylinder which include Working Pressure, Test Pressure, Data of Manufacture, Capacity and Weight.
Before filling a scuba tank with air, you should always check the tank markings, specifically looking for a current hydrostatic and pressure test date and maximum capacity / pressure. Don’t overfill scuba cylinders.

i missed the part about tank stickers? Where is that again?

 

[Wookie]

snip....
Make sure your new tank has a visual inspection decal, or an enriched air inspection decal (if you plan to use it for enriched air diving).

snip

i missed the part about tank stickers? Where is that again?

Don't be obtuse.