An Attempt at Understanding DIR

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The concept of a balanced rig, as I understand it, is that you need to be able to swim up a total wing failure, OR a total drysuit flood, but not both. If you are diving wet, you are in trouble if you are diving big steel tanks, because you only have your wing for buoyancy, and if it fails, you're down there super negative and unable to get back up. Which is why there is a strong recommendation for not diving heavy steels with wetsuits, and not diving deep in cold water in a wetsuit that can lose 20+ pounds of buoyancy with compression.

Kingpatzer, to address some of your points: JJ's book was written when there wasn't much DIR-compliant gear on the market. My understanding is that a big reason Halcyon was created was to fill that need. They have a lot of competition nowadays. No GUE instructor I've taken a class from cared what brand my gear was, although they may criticize specific features of it.

Second, nothing about DIR is unique -- people have been diving similar equipment configurations, using those gases, etc., for a long time. What's different about it is that it's a complete, prescribed system, and everybody trained within it can be expected to have predictable equipment, gases, and procedures. This makes it extremely nice, for example, to travel; I have met up with DIR divers in quite a few places, and although we have never dived together before, the experience is seamless.

With respect to the thing of not diving with other divers, there ARE procedures or equipment choices that are not good, although that's usually more in the context of higher risk dives. (And you have to realize that the guys who run this outfit and write the books and the articles are ALWAYS thinking in that context -- their universe is different from ours.) I wouldn't do a decompression dive, for example, with somebody on air. We can argue about that, and probably will, but to me, that's a risk I don't want to take. When you start doing higher risk stuff, having everybody on the same page gets much more important. We had a classmate in our Cave 2 who was trained before a lot of the protocols we use today were in use. As a result, when he was asked to deal with a failure, he didn't respond promptly and effectively. Mostly not a big deal on a 60 foot reef dive, but at 100 feet and back a thousand or more in a cave, you just need to get it right the first time, without stress.

I think many of us ARE "guilty" of doing the majority of our diving with similarly trained folks, simply because the system makes diving so easy. I read a ton of instabuddy dive reports here, and there are so often problems with staying together, or staying on the plan, or gas management . . . In Puget Sound, a lot of divers don't have any training in non-silting kicks, and diving with them means a lot of reduced visibility. I still do it, particularly with newer divers, because I want to share some of what I've learned. But for my own special fun dives? I'll get one of my regular buddies to go with me. It's not because I think other people are unsafe. It's because I have more fun with people with whom I can totally relax. (Now, there are several completely non-DIR people that I really enjoy diving with -- Charlie99 is one, gcbryan is another. But they have the skills.)

Anyway, we had 23 divers on the Channel Islands boat, and we dove four or five times a day for three days, in surge and current, sites that were unfamiliar to most of us. We sorted ourselves almost at random -- I dove with a bunch of different people, some of whom I'd never dived with before at all. There wasn't a single incident of any kind, except one team that got blown out of swimming range from the boat by current. Nobody got separated, nobody had a gas issue, nobody had problems with communication. When equipment failed (and, as you can imagine with that number of people and dives, it did) somebody else had a spare or something that would fit -- one of the big arguments for the standardized equipment! I think that trip was a really powerful testimonial to how good the system is. You can sure dive happily other ways, but this one works.
 
So, does that mean a dive with Bill Main would be unsafe?
Where did you get that inference from what I said?

NWGratefulDiver :
On a deep tech dive, or a cave dive, it matters a lot ... and I'm gonna want to be doing that dive with someone who's got a rig that's functional, well thought-out, and appropriate to the conditions of the dive.
Are you inferring that Bill Main's rig isn't functional, well thought-out, and appropriate to the conditions of the dive?

Cave Bum ... please don't try putting words in my mouth, or boxing me in with your prejudices. I won't waste my time with people who use that tactic.

FWIW - I just completed a class with Jim Wyatt ... do you know him? Do you think I believe him to be unsafe?

Sheesh ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
The concept of a balanced rig, as I understand it, is that you need to be able to swim up a total wing failure, OR a total drysuit flood, but not both.

That would make difference.
 
If you're comfortable with your gear and your diving and your buddies, why do you care what DIR divers think? If you really want to understand the system, close your internet browser and take a GUE class. All your questions will be answered, I promise.


If someone is offering to cough up the travel expenses, I'm more than willing :)
 
Nor is it the best/only way to dive safely in technical diving. Folks like
Bill Main, Wes Skiles, Woody Jasper, Lamar Hires, et-al, were diving safely long before a reporter doing a story about the WKPP coined the term 'DIR' and long before JJ even knew what cave diving was. Those folks are still diving safely today with configurations other then those espoused by DIR.


There is not one and only one way to dive safely. DIR is just one of several safe, professional ways to approach technical diving.

Even the term DIR contrary to some beliefs semantically does not imply that that's the only way to do things.
 
Unfortunately this topic is the OP trying to understand DIR, not where the configuration started or if there are other safe ways to dive. Although I have the feeling the OP due to his negative feelings on DIR just wants to debate the minutiae.

Yes, it never ceases to amaze me how the most rabid anti-DIR people tend to want to hang out in the DIR forum.

I think they just have a fascination with "gotchya" ..

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
The OP, in his original post, said he was trying to understand why DIR folks didn't seem to think it was 'safe' to dive with others trained differently. My post spoke directly to that point.

Your post missed the point by a mile.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Yes, it never ceases to amaze me how the most rabid anti-DIR people tend to want to hang out in the DIR forum.

I think they just have a fascination with "gotchya" ..

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I'm still waiting for Cave Bum to send me the links where I tell people "You will die if you don't dive DIR"


LOL
 
One of the comments made was that DIR doesn't care about equipment configurations or diving styles, only that the DIR diver should follow a basic rule about not diving with unsafe divers -- which, I've been assured, does not mean DIR only divers.

That is a highly bizzare statement, and I think you're mixing up a whole bunch of different comments by people on the Internet (and probably listening to people who are simply anti-DIR without actually knowing anything about it, but who come off as authorities). You need to get off the Internet and either start diving with DIR divers, or actually take a fundies course if you really expect to learn anything useful about it.

So, I've been perusing the Fundamentals of Better Diving book, and I have a few questions.

And that book is about 10 years old and contains much that is out of date. It isn't the Bible and is not infallable, and it was written to a much earlier audience, not the diving audience in 2009.

First, there's been some talk that DIR does not require specific manufacturers, but it seems that someone forgot to tell the manual authors to stop writing as if they do. For example, after spending some time and effort telling divers how to modify their gear, it's comment that the trouble can be avoided "Alternatively,
divers can avoid all these modifications, and purchase a BC that is specifically
designed for DIR, namely, the Halcyon BC" (page 85). The text is replete with recommendations for particular manufactures, combined with derisive comments about other manufacture's gear. How do DIR divers reconcile the position that GUE/DIR do not require specific manufacturers when the texts are written to strongly suggest that only very specific manufacturers make the gear DIR requires?

Again, this is horrendously out of date. At the time Halcyon was the only manufacturer which was specifically catering to the DIR gear configuration and there really weren't a lot of good published standards on what the gear configuration is. At this point you can buy "Dress for Success" and then go out and just make sure that the equipment you are buying from anyone fits the requirements. You can also get onto sites like Deep Sea Supply and they'll usually have DIR-compliant equipment clearly labelled as such (e.g. DIR continuous-webbing harnesses vs. quick releases). If you take a current GUE course you won't find a scrap of issue over the manufacturer of equipment, only reasons why certain kinds of equipment are inside or outside the standards.

Continuing on equipment. While some on this board have stated that they'd have no problem diving with someone in non-DIR sanctioned gear configurations, I fail to see how that would not violate DIR's "don't dive with unsafe divers" rule. In other words, diving with someone "doing it wrong" (honestly said in jest here) is in itself "doing it wrong."

This is an endless argument that comes up often and will never be settled.

In fact, nobody is watching over your shoulder making sure that every single dive you do must be DIR. If you take a course you will get introduced to the concepts and usually students come out of the course better prepared to make decisions about who they will dive with and when and under what conditions. Some of them do come out of the course and hear nothing but the message that they must never dive with anyone outside of GUE ever, but that message isn't actually part of the course -- those are people satisfying their own emotional issues.

From the Fundamentals book:

[...]

Now,the text does have plenty of excellent information in it. But the question remains -- the GUE/DIR diving philosophy states that one should not dive with unsafe divers, and the Fundamentals text indicates quite specifically that diving a non-DIR configuration in intrinsically unsafe.

Out of a few hundred pages, you have cherry picked a few statements to justify your criticism of everything GUE. You've found something like 0.1% of the words in that book to raise a problem with.

At this point you are clearly looking for any reason to criticize GUE/DIR, no matter how small and you're not even bothering to assess the big picture. If you continue down that road then nobody is ever going to convince you otherwise, since you will just continue to collect minor issues that you find into a case against GUE/DIR.

How then, can a DIR diver committed to the DIR methodology and philosophy not be considered in violating that methodology and philosophy when diving with someone in a non-DIR sanctioned gear configuration?

So, if JJ comes out to the West Coast to take a Megalodon Rebreather course with Leon, does that mean someone needs to yank his GUE cards away from him because he's diving a non-DIR sanctioned gear config?

When an instructor does a DIRF course with a bunch of students that are ill-prepared as buddies and they are basically solo diving while taking care of both themselves and a pile of non-DIR divers, what does that mean?

There's all kinds of "non-DIR" dives made by DIR divers that occur for various reasons and due to various choices. At no point in the GUE curriculum is a lobotomy required to take away your ability to make your own choices (or maybe I just haven't gotten to that certification level yet).
 
Yet within [-]DIR [/-] the internet there's a remarkable tendency to point out that someone is a DIR diver. Something not seen to such a degree with other agencies. Along with a contention that those who are not diving DIR are unsafe to one degree or another.

There ... fixed it for ya.

FWIW - I find no such limitations in the real world. I have some DIR training ... but I am not (nor do I aspire to be) DIR. I made the effort to learn what I could about DIR ... took a few classes ... decided it wasn't the most effective way for me to learn ... and moved on. I've since taken my technical training from IANTD, NAUI Tech, and NSS-CDS.

And I have not ever ... not even once ... been told by any DIR diver, including several who I dive with regularly, that they consider me unsafe.

What exactly is it you're looking for ... skills or acceptance? If it's the former, then learn and use what you need from the system. If it's the latter, then I'm afraid all you're gonna do is frustrate yourself ... and anybody else who tries discussing this topic with you in a reasonable manner.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 

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