Alleged illegal tanks sold by Add Helium-Heads up to any that may have purchased

[cerich]

What do you think about these tanks?
They have Worthington Cylinders name and logo backing them up. I would assume they are made in China also.

Single Cylinders - CARBONDIVE 300 - Carbon Scuba Tanks, Diving Equipment, Worthington

They carry a German safety certification fromTUV

Profile

I think as Technology advances these will just get better over time and we will see more and more of them being used in Scuba.
I here a lot of the gloom and doom here that I did when I started diving a CCR from the GUE types.
"You couldn't pay me to dive one of those, they are always trying to kill you"
"Scrubber channeling will kill you"
"Co2 will kill you"
"Electronics/solenoid will kill you"
"Did you know there is no regulation on the O2 cells?
"O2 cells are not designed to get wet"
"Your taking Sorb underwater? Your crazy"
The list is long and goes on and on and on yet here we are today and even GUE types are diving CCRs

by the way..Carbon dive cylinders are NOT made in China

Dear Chrstiopher, this is not correct. Our cylinders are produced in Austria (of course also CE certified). Our valves and manifolds are produced in Italy and our cylinder bands (for our Twinpacks) are produced in Germany. Best regards, Your CARBONDIVE-Team

 

[tbone1004]

@MarkFlory I still wouldn't buy them. The risk of water/contaminant ingress to the cylinders is too high due to the inconsistency in the manufacturing process or slight damage to the composite due to impact, differential heating/cooling, etc etc. I know who makes these cylinders in Europe, and have no doubt that they are building them to the best of their ability, but these are the cylinders that have a much bigger market for cascade bottles that are transported around, or anything else with surface use, not in underwater applications.

Wrapped cylinders are very different than most commercial composites *i.e. aerospace or automotive* that are made with a pre-preg material. With those, the woven structures are impregnated with resin in a very uniform manner prior to being put into a composite structure and the risk of dry spots is basically negligible. These cylinders have to be wrapped with the yarn around the metal cylinder, then the whole cylinder impregnated with resin. This puts it at a much higher risk for dry spots due to a myriad of variables and you would never know without a proper scan of the structure which I can all but guarantee they aren't doing on every cylinder. If they are truly ultrasonically testing all of these bottles, then I have much less issues, but that is an expensive process and I would bet they are just batch testing, which isn't frequent enough for me to trust them, especially not with oxygen.

Unfortunately the hydrostatic testing on these cylinders is completely useless in my opinion because carbon fiber, especially when stabilized in a composite, isn't going to stretch. We use hydro to test the elasticity of the tanks, these tanks won't/can't stretch, and the testing you need is a scan of the composite structure for failure/defect, not whether it can withstand pressure. Right now the risk:reward just isn't there for these bottles and I really don't see where they can get there.

This is very different than the discussion on rebreathers where there is distrust of electronics or the operator, but no real distrust in the unit manufacturing process themselves *aside from the galvanic sensors*, and there is a measurable reward to diving a CCR. This is a manufacturing concern where the failures can happen without you being aware of them, and the only thing you gain is a lighter cylinder. Dive sidemount, find lighter doubles, go to CCR, use a cart, get a big ass dive buddy that is generous enough to move your doubles around, etc. but this is not something that I ever see taking off in a meaningful way because of the manufacturing restrictions of this type of composites

 

[St John the Diver]

I think as Technology advances these will just get better over time and we will see more and more of them being used in Scuba.

Maybe, but why? Luxfer brought DOT spec ones to market (I've got two), but their buoyancy characteristics suck. Nobody likes diving them.

You're too young to remember the introduction of the first US Divers aluminum cylinders, the tall old 72's that first came out in... Hmm: 73? They were feather light. Pick one up and "holy cow". But they sucked in the water big time. They were VERY quickly replaced by the "heavy wall" 72 to bring buoyancy within limits and then followed up by the 80's that you know about.

The USD 72's were called "Mark I" and the 80's "Mark II Professional" cylinders if I remember correctly. I owned both. I think I still have a thin-wall 72 someplace for filling tires.

 

[St John the Diver]

"Unfortunately the hydrostatic testing on these cylinders is completely useless in my opinion because carbon fiber, especially when stabilized in a composite, isn't going to stretch. We use hydro to test the elasticity of the tanks, these tanks won't/can't stretch, and the testing you need is a scan of the composite structure for failure/defect, not whether it can withstand pressure"



This is pretty much what I wrote in my cave-fills post. Thanks for adding it.

 

[Wookie]

I was told by a LDS that there is a certain number of tanks required before the placarding requirement kicks in, and they stayed below it.

I'm digging up 20 year old knowledge here, but placarding isn't required on vehicles for 2.2 non-flammable gasses until 1001 lbs aggregate weight. We carried that in bank bottles alone, but then, vessels aren't required to have placards unless the containers are shipped within another container, like compressed gas cylinders in a cargo container.

 

[cool_hardware52]

What do you think about these tanks?
They have Worthington Cylinders name and logo backing them up. I would assume they are made in China also.

Single Cylinders - CARBONDIVE 300 - Carbon Scuba Tanks, Diving Equipment, Worthington

They carry a German safety certification fromTUV

Profile

I think as Technology advances these will just get better over time and we will see more and more of them being used in Scuba.
I here a lot of the gloom and doom here that I did when I started diving a CCR from the GUE types.
"You couldn't pay me to dive one of those, they are always trying to kill you"
"Scrubber channeling will kill you"
"Co2 will kill you"
"Electronics/solenoid will kill you"
"Did you know there is no regulation on the O2 cells?
"O2 cells are not designed to get wet"
"Your taking Sorb underwater? Your crazy"
The list is long and goes on and on and on yet here we are today and even GUE types are diving CCRs

Mark,

Take a look at my first post in this thread. I acknowledged that tech divers and RB diver in particular routinely push the envelope and use many things "off label" I have zero problem with that. They are after all risking their own life and maybe their teammates. Generally they are not putting others at risk.

IMO there is a huge difference between using an O2 cell contrary to the manufacturers recommendations, or using a given scuba valve with 100 O2 when the maker said not to, and altering the markings on pressure vessels, or knowingly selling tanks that have been altered to appear to be in compliance. I have no idea if Add Helium did so, none. I have no axe to grind, none. As I stated earlier I sincerely hope that no illegal actions were taken by anybody, and that what we are witness to is a pissing match between business partners that includes false allegations, divorce can be messy.

If such alterations were made to tanks it is a serious issue, laws were broken and divers were defrauded. Let's hope that is not the case.

Tobin

 

[cool_hardware52]

Some very basic info on ITAR:

Export Policy and Export Restrictions Information

 

[St John the Diver]

Some very basic info on ITAR:

Export Policy and Export Restrictions Information

Exactly. And that's just from a retailer of rifle sights and optics.

Like I said "x" posts up: You can fill up a shopping cart at Cabelas with a Dozen things they sell and take it home, but then if you box it up and send it overseas you can be most royally screwed.

Closed circuit and semi-closed circuit diving apparatus are specifically named on the list. It's pretty black and white.

According to the complaint made by his partner, the partner became concerned about an export shipment and sought advice from the government. He was advised it was a prohibited shipment. He then advised Sotis who ignored him. Only then did he rat Sotis out, and the shipment was intercepted (??). That part isn't clear. I seriously doubt that any attorney would recite these facts in a complaint if they were not provable. Attorneys are disbarred for doing things like that. So, like it or not, that's probably how it went.

 

[Wookie]

Exactly. And that's just from a retailer of rifle sights and optics.

Like I said "x" posts up: You can fill up a shopping cart at Cabelas with a Dozen things they sell and take it home, but then if you box it up and send it overseas you can be most royally screwed.

Closed circuit and semi-closed circuit diving apparatus are specifically named on the list. It's pretty black and white.

I got an OFAC permit to export certain American made rebreathers to Cuba. I had to promise to bring them home. Upon pain of death. Or at least a massive fine. This was when Cuba was still a state sponsor of terrorism. Rebreathers of foreign manufacture (AP, rEvo) didn't interest OFAC even a little.

I know OFAC isn't ITAR, but they do speak to each other.

 

[St John the Diver]

I got an OFAC permit to export certain American made rebreathers to Cuba. I had to promise to bring them home. Upon pain of death. Or at least a massive fine. This was when Cuba was still a state sponsor of terrorism. Rebreathers of foreign manufacture (AP, rEvo) didn't interest OFAC even a little.

I know OFAC isn't ITAR, but they do speak to each other.

Good data point.

Hi to Mel and the cat. Meow.