Agency comparisons

[cinder4320]

I got my PADI OW through my local dive shop. They were awesome and due to the time of year it was a private course for us. After twenty-some dives (max depth 103') I did a liveaboard. On the liveaboard (got back yesterday) there was a NAUI instructor. I wanted my advanced class to mean something but at the same time I feel my diving skills are being fine tuned by practice not by book work. I took the class and had five of my liveabaord dives count towards it. We did deep, wreck, s&r, night, and nav. I feel that me and my fiancee(no longer boyfriend thanks to the trip!) garnered some info and became better divers. We probably would have been just as good divers after doing the dives by ourselves but at the same time the card is out of the way. I did see some divers in the class that I would never dive with. I also saw some divers working on DM or higher who were horrible. In the class we had a NAUI OW student who finished her checkout dives at the beginning of the liveaboard and then jumped into the class so after 9 dives was certified advanced. I point this out so others know it isn't just PADI this can happen with.

All in all a good diver is a good diver regardless of certification level. I wanted the AOW so i could go on to rescue and eventual DM. I think simply more experience and dives will help me to become even better than any generic class.

Miranda

 

[Walter]

In the class we had a NAUI OW student who finished her checkout dives at the beginning of the liveaboard and then jumped into the class so after 9 dives was certified advanced. I point this out so others know it isn't just PADI this can happen with.

True, it can happen with other agencies, but not with NAUI. NAUI requires 6 dives for AOW, so she'd have to have at least 10 dives and probably 11, because for the SCUBA diver (NAUI doesn't call it Open Water) course NAUI requires 5 dives, not 4. Of course, the dives can be either 4 SCUBA and 1 skin or 5 SCUBA dives, but most NAUI Instructors I've seen usually make it 5 SCUBA. I do agree with your general point that even with NAUI, folks are getting their Advanced with not enough dives. The positive point is NAUI does require academics for their AOW.

 

[cinder4320]

I do agree with your general point that even with NAUI, folks are getting their Advanced with not enough dives. The positive point is NAUI does require academics for their AOW.

We did not do six specific dives for our advanced (night,nav,s&r,deep,wreck), only five. I completed many more than five dives during the trip though. We were on a liveaboard and did five skill dives only that the navigation course took two dives (no instructor present just tasks). So really at the end the AOW student had more than 9 dives but only because we were on a liveaboard and she was diving in between too.

Actually our NAUI academics as you call it was no more, if not less than the PADI. To clarify, I started advanced with my LDS and got the PADI book, etc. The weather turned cold and I had only done the wreck dive. Since we hadn't paid yet they said they would hold off until the summer or I could do the entire course on my liveaboard. I never paid or anything so when I got to the boat I did the full NAUI course. The Naui book was much shorter, had no written test or knowledge review. We had a few short (less than five minutes) discussions. Mostly we did the dives and did them safely. I didn't see anything to make me think it was any better than that which I started with PADI. In fact since one book was shared between us I have noreference and it was really short anyways. Anyways I realize this may not be common on all NAUI courses but my point is that with all the PADI bashing I found the EXACT SAME things happening with NAUI.

Miranda

 

[Ber Rabbit]

There is supposed to be a written exam for the NAUI AOW course. It's a 50 question true/false test but it's part of the requirements. The NAUI book probably is shorter because some things were covered in the NAUI open water book that PADI puts in its advanced book. Personally I don't use NAUI's new advanced book, it has 2 chapters that are worthwhile. I use the Master Diver book which is the old advanced book--I have them both and can prove they just did a little re-arranging.
The academic portion of the NAUI advanced course is done as expanded briefings to cover things you have not done before such as navigation, search and recovery, etc. as well as an orientation/paperwork session and the final exam. Students who are fairly familiar with the topics will not require super long briefings. NAUI doesn't do knowledge reviews that I've ever seen. They do have workbooks that go along with all of their texts but you don't have to use them as long as you have some form of documenting competency in both skills and knowledge. From the NAUI Standards and Policies handbook: "Knowledge tests may be written or oral, open or closed book, in class or take-home. The results must be documented and retained. A master exam and key shall be retained with class records. The final exam for a course shall be composed of at least 50 questions and be representative of course topics and activities. After administering an exam the instructor shall review it and the correct answers with students to ensure that each student understands the information covered. The review shall be documented as part of the student record."

Hope this sheds some light.
Ber :lilbunny:

 

[Walter]

We did not do six specific dives for our advanced (night,nav,s&r,deep,wreck), only five.

Then the instructor violated standards. This is not NAUI's fault unless you report it and they take no action.

The Naui book was much shorter, had no written test or knowledge review.

I don't teach NAUI and am not familiar with the text, but I have read enough PADI texts to know they are mostly filler. They could easily have more usefull material added, have the extra wasted space taken out and end up with a much better and much shorter book. Don't judge a book's quality by its length. The Silver Advanced course I do teach, I teach without a text. I promise you there's considerably more academics than in either PADI or NAUI's AOW classes.

If you didn't take a test, that was yet another violation. Report the instructor to NAUI.

We had a few short (less than five minutes) discussions. Mostly we did the dives and did them safely. I didn't see anything to make me think it was any better than that which I started with PADI.

Sounds like another standards violation.

In fact since one book was shared between us I have noreference and it was really short anyways. Anyways I realize this may not be common on all NAUI courses but my point is that with all the PADI bashing I found the EXACT SAME things happening with NAUI.

Miranda

There's a difference in where the responsibility lies. If a PADI Instructor violates PADI standards, PADI cannot be faulted for that violation. With regard to training, an agency can only be faulted for low standards or for not enforcing those standards. It cannot be responsible for violations of its standards if those violations have not been reported. Most agencies are eager to eliminate standards violations. Your responsibility is to now report those violations of which you were the victim.

 

[Divedoggie]

It just won't die, will it........

Why is everyone SO hung up on MINIMUM standards? We could have an AMAZING comparative discussion on public high schools....

People are as good as they want to be.

Instructors and certification agencies can only hope that when those people walk out the door with a new C card, that they will retain and practice SOME of what they learned.

 

[Walter]

Why is everyone SO hung up on MINIMUM standards?

Because most of the time that is exactly what is taught.

People are as good as they want to be.

Agreed. If we let them know the differences, they can choose wisely from the start. Most will still choose the quick, cheap, low quality route, but those who want something different, will know how to find it.

 

[joe rock]

It just won't die, will it........

People are as good as they want to be.

Instructors and certification agencies can only hope that when those people walk out the door with a new C card, that they will retain and practice SOME of what they learned.

I have to agree with DD's comments above. Also, I think Walter has made excellent points. It is so easy to rip any educational process. Bottom line it is the responsibility of the individual. Walter's right in that we need to have minimum standards. The agencies; PADI, NAUI, TDI, SSI, YMCA etc. etc. can only develop the standards and training materials - the rest is up to the instructors and students. As has been said many times in many posts on this board, choose the INSTRUCTOR! That's just IMHO.

On the side, I am an adjunct professor in an MBA program. Been doing it for 12 years. I am lucky in that I teach classes in my choosen profession and teach based on experience not text books, but I do assign texts. Post graduate level text books are no better nor any worse than much of the diving course materials. Oh, and many of them come with CD's and on-line learning modules. If you think PADI, NAUI etc. course materials are a rip-off, go buy a college text book

JR

 

[Ber Rabbit]

Hey JR, you ought to see what happens when you combine college book stores with scuba texts--WOW! I can sell the all the required materials (text/tables/logbook) to my students for less than the bookstore sells the text. They nearly doubled their purchase price of the tables and the logbook--YIKES!
Ber :lilbunny:

 

[joe rock]

I do believe that!

My son got a little shock when during his freshman orientation he went up to the cash register with a handful of books, looked at Dad and I said get the checkbook out :11doh:

Bashing everything is such a good hobby - glad all us on SB are perfect