Agency codes of conduct vs. "SCUBA lite" products that purport to require no training

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HantsDiver

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So we'll buy off craigs list (classifieds), black market, in Mexico, and so on. You can't regulate all sales, and if you try the end result is best described as "if you outlaw guns, only outlaw will have guns". Or scuba tanks, as the case may be.

The flip side is e.g. my dive computer's manual starts with a page on how I shouldn't be diving with it, or at all, stating essentially that the device is not fit for its stated purpose. If you take it literally.

I know my sarcasm doesn't come across well on here. I'm not advocating that things are regulated. I'm advocating that people should stop creating a level of hysteria over what is likely to be a crappy product. It's no more dangerous than conventional scuba equipment. It's just not as good.
 

boulderjohn

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So we'll buy off craigs list (classifieds), black market, in Mexico, and so on. You can't regulate all sales, and if you try the end result is best described as "if you outlaw guns, only outlaw will have guns". Or scuba tanks, as the case may be.
The main reason that a dive shop will not fill your tanks (etc.) is a fear that they will be sued if you go out and kill yourself. The Craiglist seller is not so concerned about it.

I also know that every dive shop I know of will sell some sort of equipment to wives, husbands, girlfriends, or whatever buying things as gifts for divers. I remember one vivid story of a non-diving woman who almost stabbed herself buying a dive knife for her boyfriend.
 

dmaziuk

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I know my sarcasm doesn't come across well on here.

Also known as invisible <sarcasm> tags. Yeah, that happens.
 

JamesBon92007

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1. Let's say you are the owner of a sporting goods store, and you know a little about scuba. A salesperson comes in and tries to get you to sell one of these products. Do you think you might ask him or her a question or two about what will happen if one of your customers buys one, blows a lung, and dies? Might you wonder about your liability for selling an unsafe product? Heck, you can't buy lawn darts in a store any more for that reason.

2. Let's say you own a resort, and are considering buying one of those for your guests to rent. Resorts are already doing things like that. A non-diving friend of mine used some sort of diving helmet on a trip about a decade ago and almost destroyed his ears. I suspect you, too, would want to make sure that your customers are well informed before they use it--again, the risk of liability rears its head.

3. If you were a dive shop, you would probably consider at least some of these devices in your program, but, once again, you would certainly want to make sure that the users were well informed.
.

1. I was under the impression that they are currently being sold online. I looked at the SCORKL web site and it does inform the user not to hold their breath and briefly discuses air embolism etc.

2. How does one equalize their ears wearing a helmet or full-face mask? I've never thought about it until you said that.

3. Sure.
 
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tbone1004

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@JamesBon92007 they have nose blocks. You basically push the mask up and in towards your eyes and the blocks touch your nostrils. From there you equalize like you would with your nose pinched. It takes some getting used to and you have to make sure the nose blocks are adjusted properly
 

JamesBon92007

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[

1. What is the most appropriate way to respond to people with no diving experience who ask about these products?

2. How do the major agencies' codes of conduct for instructors affect what instructors may and may not say?

3. How do the non-disparagement and "no encouragement of unsafe activities" requirements in the various codes of conduct work together? Are they in outright conflict for these products?

4. Is the arrival of these devices going to lead to state or federal regulation of diving?

1. I have had one person ask me about them which was a neighbor with a 14-year-old daughter. I advised them not to use such a device without proper (scuba) training and explained somewhat about air expansion upon ascension, air embolism, etc--enough to make them realize that they don't know what they don't know and it's not safe to use without that knowledge.

2. N/A

3. N/A

4. Only if they can tax it. In California they figured out how to tax sunlight.
 

JamesBon92007

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I'm not based in the USA - but I'll ask the question for those who are. In America is training checked/required in order for you to buy scuba diving equipment? .

According to everything I understand about how it's supposed to work then yes, they are supposed to ask to see a C-Card for anything relevant to someone using scuba. I have been certified for 48 years and have shown my C-Card perhaps half a dozen times and probably never when I bought equipment. Sure, most of the time they knew me so I suppose they assumed someone, at some time, had looked at my card. But most people can probably tell from talking to you if you have some idea about what you are doing.
 

yle

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According to everything I understand about how it's supposed to work then yes, they are supposed to ask to see a C-Card for anything relevant to someone using scuba.

According to what I understand, a cert card is typically asked for by a dive op if they are taking you out diving, or by a shop if they are filling your tank. I've never heard of someone purchasing dive gear being asked to show a cert card. I'm not saying it's never happened, but just that my impression is that it's exceedingly rare.

Standards for the scuba industry are self-imposed and self-regulated, and we'd like to keep it that way (i.e. keep the government out of it.) But for that reason, there is no "laws of scuba" that you'll be arrested for breaking. And it's also why your experience could vary significantly from that of other divers.

And contrary to popular misconception, it's fairly easy to get a scuba cylinder filled without presenting a cert card. Paintballers use scuba cylinders to refill the small cylinders attached to their markers. Many shops will refill a paintballer's scuba cylinder without a cert card, as long as the paintballer states in writing that the cylinder won't be used for scuba.
 

hroark2112

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If I wanted to I could do anything except dive off an actual dive boat without the support of a local dive shop or any kind of actual certification at all. I could do air fills, nitrox, trimix, whatever I wanted to do with easily available equipment and supplies.

As a dive pro, if I knew of someone trying to do so, I would strongly encourage them to seek legitimate training. That's all I can do. Do I think the government wants to regulate the dive industry? No, not unless we're trying to figure out a way to swim under Trump's wall. I'm not saying I hope anyone who uses these kinds of inventions dies, but if you do something stupid and ignore the warnings, you deserve what happens to you.
 
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