Age 10 Seems Too Young for Certification

[Splitlip]

IMO, I say 15 or 16. Driver's permit age. Minimum.

 

[drrich2]

I think deciding the criteria for an age is a big factor. Kids are heavily dependent on their parents to make/authorize decisions for them. Some people on this forum have expressed, er, shall we say, 'concern' for the current state of mainstream basic OW scuba diving education (basically, those divers trained to minimum agency standards, rather than with instructors who do much 'value-added' beefing up of the courses). Now, if a very marginally competent adult diver who 'doesn't know what he doesn't know' has a 10 year old kid, and sees that his agency will certify 10 year olds, he may conclude that it must be okay for most 10 year olds to dive.

Be mindful that our modern day litigious society and bureaucracy have helped create a 'white-washed, idiot-proof' world of product & service regulation to protect the ignorant (and even the stupid), and that's the world many people are used to living in. Hence, many will assume the Instructor wouldn't teach the kid, or PADI allow it, if it weren't 'safe.'

But then again, should we refuse certification to particularly mature 10 year olds who have wise parents who are excellent divers & will mentor effectively, to save mediocre or 'a little below average' 10 year olds with ignorant and/or foolish parents? With adults, people often cite natural selection, 'Darwin Awards,' the cost of freedom, etc..., but such are adults capable of making informed decisions. If a 10 year old gets in over his head and drowns, do we write him off & say the gene pool's improved?

Kind of a tough call.

Richard.

 

[ffdiver]

I think it depends on Where the child is getting certified. As a DM helping out with lots of OW classes here on long island, our shore diving conditions are in my opinion alittle rough for 10 year olds.

Mostly what I see when young kids dive is the parent trying to dive for them. I have had to very firmly remind a parent that the child HAS to preform all the skills themselves.

I think 10 years old is just too young to be able to dive independently. Not Solo, just independent.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I think 10 years old is just too young to be able to dive independently. Not Solo, just independent.

Perhaps that is why every 10-14 year old Jr. Open Water diver is by Standards supposed to dive with an adult.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

That is to protect the agency. We've all seen parents who shouldn't be allowed in the water and we are going to say it;s ok for them to dive with their kids. I told one instructor that I was assisiting as a DM about one individual like that. Dad had more money than sense, got son certed at 13 and the kid was a natural. I would have dove with him anytime. The dad was a train wreck who insisted he was good enough for the dives he did. I wanted to tell him he was going to screw his kid up big time. Kid wanted to dive local to work on his skills and get more comfortable. Dad said no because he would not dive with him. Nothing to see. If kid was going to dive it was only with dad. Dad dives once a year on vacation. No refresher for him or the kid. Was told to not say anything as we might lose his business. Should have said something. That one still bothers me from time to time.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I'm with you there Jim; I've seen plenty certified parents that may have since significantly corrupted the training I gave their kids.

Kind of hard to adjust certification for that; there are also kids of non-certified parents who may end up with bad adult "buddies" for their formative dives. There are also older than 15 year old kids who have bad parent buddies or other bad adult buddies..

 

[explorer08]

I disagree, the physics comprehension required for a child who will dive with a parent are pretty simple: Don't hold your breath, don't come up too fast (or faster than dad), don't dive for deeper or longer than your dad does and watch your air and make sure you let dad know when you hit 1000 psi... Other than that, they need to learn to balance their bouyancy. None of this is too difficult, for a highly motivated and bright child.

As for children necessarily being more fearful than adults? I don't agree with that. How many mothers of 6-th graders will hang upside down from their knees from the monkey bars? The mothers are probably scared and many kids think nothing of it. If anything, I think young kids will tend to exhibit too little fear.

It does take a special kid to dive very young and it requires an experienced parent to supervise, but some of your assumptions, just don't apply universally. Again, I think 13 is a more reasonable age.

And I disagree with you!
Diving with people with only rudimentary knowldege about diving is part of my daily job as a diving instructor, because however anybody would learn to dive if even we instructors wouldn't dive with beginners.
But as a common rec diver I would refuse diving with somebody with less than the minimum Open Water Diver knowledge, because in the worst case my life is dependent on my buddies knowledge and capabilities.
And because of that IMHO solo diving capabilities are mandatory for any instructor!

What many people here seem to ignore, is that diving (others than other youth activities) is taking part in a potential life hostile environment.

And, by the way, if what you mentioned before, is everything a child needs to know about diving theory, what do you think why PADI (I don't know about and therefore can't talk for other agencies) requires that Junior Divers have to fulfill the same certification requirements, including all the academic parts, than adult divers?

And in Germany we have a saying. If I translate it, it is:
Who wants to go pissing with the big dogs, has to get his leg high enough!

And with regards to fears:

How many mothers of 6-th graders will hang upside down from their knees from the monkey bars? The mothers are probably scared and many kids think nothing of it. If anything, I think young kids will tend to exhibit too little fear.

Exactly that's it!
Children dont't think of it. They don't fear where they probably should and they fear where adults wouldn't see any reason for it.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

And I disagree with you!
Diving with people with only rudimentary knowldege about diving is part of my daily job as a diving instructor, because however anybody would learn to dive if even we instructors wouldn't dive with beginners.
But as a common rec diver I would refuse diving with somebody with less than the minimum Open Water Diver knowledge, because in the worst case my life is dependent on my buddies knowledge and capabilities.
And because of that IMHO solo diving capabilities are mandatory for any instructor!

What many people here seem to ignore, is that diving (others than other youth activities) is taking part in a potential life hostile environment.

And, by the way, if what you mentioned before, is everything a child needs to know about diving theory, what do you think why PADI (I don't know about and therefore can't talk for other agencies) requires that Junior Divers have to fulfill the same certification requirements, including all the academic parts, than adult divers?

And in Germany we have a saying. If I translate it, it is:
Who wants to go pissing with the big dogs, has to get his leg high enough!

And with regards to fears:

Exactly that's it!
Children dont't think of it. They don't fear where they probably should and they fear where adults wouldn't see any reason for it.

A 10 yr old kid is unlikely to really learn all the stuff from the PADI manual if they follow the typical PADI class. I think my point is that the truely essential konwledge is not that significant AND small children really are going on "trust me" dives. For example, my kid dives with no computer or dive watch... he just needs to stay with me (and watch his air).

As for my second 10 yr old..we studied the material extensively at home and the instructor who certified him, gave him the final exam without any instruction and he passed it pretty easily.

Young kids like this CAN dive safely if well trained, motivated AND with good supervision, but again I think that it is probably pretty rare to find these capabilities in a 10 yr old.

Also, my kid learned to dive in warm water and never ventured into coldwater. When we made it up to Maine and he needed 20% of his body weight in lead, thick gloves and a bulky suit... It definitely was more challenging and little skinny kids are at a big disadvantge with regard to thermal stress relative to large adults.

Perhaps my perspective is warped because I was diving solo in cold ocean water to 80 feet or so when I was 14 yrs old.

 

[explorer08]

A 10 yr old kid is unlikely to really learn all the stuff from the PADI manual if they follow the typical PADI class.

An interesting opinion. It would be interesting to hear a statement from PADI regarding that point.
If you are true, the PADI classes I know are very untypical.

For example, my kid dives with no computer or dive watch... he just needs to stay with me (and watch his air). ...
Young kids like this CAN dive safely if well trained, motivated AND with good supervision,...

Even if no problem does occur with them, what's about problems occuring with the supervising adult?

... but again I think that it is probably pretty rare to find these capabilities in a 10 yr old.

One more reason to lift the minimum age for children. I guess there are much more children to be prevented from themselves or more likely from the ambitions of their parents, than there are children who realy have the capabilities for diving at that age.
And it is much easier to prevent them by setting minimum requirements trough the agencies than leaving the decision to the instructors.

 

[scubadada]

A mature 12 year old who is a good swimmer, comfortable in the water, and can effectively deal with the educational material is fine to become a Junior OW diver. Both my kids fit this description and did very well. I now have a 25 and an 21 year old competent buddy to dive with.

Good diving, Craig