Adventure Diver to AOW

[NAM001]

Don't dispute any of what you say. It all makes sense. Would you not agree however that IF someone did the 5 specialties first (a question that divers have asked several times on SB in the past)--that PADI ought to just send such a person the AOW card free? Or, perhaps a very small fee to cover costs of actually making the card, postage? People often ask that of the $50-$60 MSD card. After all, the diver did take 5 specialties, which was not a small amount of money.
I did just now read PADI's description of the "Think Like A Diver". It does say that it helps divers approach the specialty dives of AOW the way experienced divers would, and that it may in fact spur them on to taking some full specialties. Good idea--but the diver IS experienced--at least in that he/she HAS taken all those specialties already.
In other words, it just hits me as kind of being nickle and diming.

I agree the aow SPECIALTY DIVES WAS to promote further training I also agree that APOW can not hold a candle to what was learned in a complete course. the think like a diver would be reiterated in all specialty classes that have a card associated with them.

 

[tursiops]

The time factor of ding the many courses over several weeks vs taking a weekend class of AOW makes AOW a short cut to getting to master.

This is a misunderstanding. AOW is a prereq for MSD, but so are five FULL specialties, not just one or the other.

 

[JackD342]

Don't dispute any of what you say. It all makes sense. Would you not agree however that IF someone did the 5 specialties first (a question that divers have asked several times on SB in the past)--that PADI ought to just send such a person the AOW card free? Or, perhaps a very small fee to cover costs of actually making the card, postage? People often ask that of the $50-$60 MSD card. After all, the diver did take 5 specialties, which was not a small amount of money.
I did just now read PADI's description of the "Think Like A Diver". It does say that it helps divers approach the specialty dives of AOW the way experienced divers would, and that it may in fact spur them on to taking some full specialties. Good idea--but the diver IS experienced--at least in that he/she HAS taken all those specialties already.
In other words, it just hits me as kind of being nickle and diming.

Can I assume that you understand paying for a card with AOW, and then if you complete those specific 5 specialties, paying for those 5 cards? Why then would a card be free if done in the opposite order? All of the same content and dives were completed. Either way, a shop is certainly free to provide a discount, even free on a certification card for a student, if they choose to. They still have to pay their cost for the card, of course. Again, 5 Specialties all with one shop? More likely to receive such consideration.

that makes sense except for the short AOW sit down and buying a card and book. they are not going to let you out of that. So It sounds like If it were not for the agency insuring they get paid for aow,,, it would serve no purpose because the content is among the other courses you could have taken. The time factor of ding the many courses over several weeks vs taking a weekend class of AOW makes AOW a short cut to getting to master.

I can’t figure out your perceived shortcuts. AOW is in addition to the Specialties required for Master Diver, it does not take their place.

 

[tursiops]

Someone correct me please if I missed something, but I don’t find a PADI standard that Deep Adventure can’t be the first dive.

Well, there is this standard:
If you do not have recent dive experience with the diver, in preparation for the dive, generally assess diver knowledge, and, before going to depth in open water, evaluate the diver in water for prerequisite skills needed to complete the Deep Dive.
So this apparently means, unless you've dived with the student before, the Deep Adventure dive can't be your first dive with him/her.
Secondly, Training Bulletin 3Q2009 discusses this in detail, and why a previous standard about how the Deep Adventure dive could not be Dive one or Two of the AOW course, was withdrawn. But the same TB allows you to do the preassesement early in the dive, before you go to depth: "This evaluation may include checking the diver’s buoyancy control, familiarity with dive equipment such as being able to easily access and understand instrument readings (the SPG, dive computer, depth gauge, timing device), and the ability to clearly communicate underwater. You can conduct this preassessment as a separate confined water session or at the start of the Deep Dive, as long as you evaluate the diver before you go to depth."

 

[JackD342]

Well, there is this standard:
If you do not have recent dive experience with the diver, in preparation for the dive, generally assess diver knowledge, and, before going to depth in open water, evaluate the diver in water for prerequisite skills needed to complete the Deep Dive.
So this apparently means, unless you've dived with the student before, the Deep Adventure dive can't be your first dive with him/her.
Secondly, Training Bulletin 3Q2009 discusses this in detail, and why a previous standard about how the Deep Adventure dive could not be Dive one or Two of the AOW course, was withdrawn. But the same TB allows you to do the preassesement early in the dive, before you go to depth: "This evaluation may include checking the diver’s buoyancy control, familiarity with dive equipment such as being able to easily access and understand instrument readings (the SPG, dive computer, depth gauge, timing device), and the ability to clearly communicate underwater. You can conduct this preassessment as a separate confined water session or at the start of the Deep Dive, as long as you evaluate the diver before you go to depth."

Thanks for the confirmation. And we are supposed to evaluate ANY student we take on that we are not familiar with. One of those common sense practices that are written into standards to remind us.

 

[TMHeimer]

Can I assume that you understand paying for a card with AOW, and then if you complete those specific 5 specialties, paying for those 5 cards? Why then would a card be free if done in the opposite order? All of the same content and dives were completed. Either way, a shop is certainly free to provide a discount, even free on a certification card for a student, if they choose to. They still have to pay their cost for the card, of course. Again, 5 Specialties all with one shop? More likely to receive such consideration.


I can’t figure out your perceived shortcuts. AOW is in addition to the Specialties required for Master Diver, it does not take their place.

I'm just saying it makes PADI look cheap....that's all. If you take the 5 specialties first, then want an AOW card, do you still get the 5 Adventure dives that you already did in the specialties? Well, I GUESS you could if you took the whole AOW course and paid for them as part of it. So, you pay for an AOW manual that has less detail than the 5 manuals you already have from the specialties? Yes, it has ALL the specialties, not just the 5 you'll take. I did ALL the Knowledge Reviews in the old "Adventures in Diving" AOW book as it was previously called. Just for the heck of it. I was only interested in the dives I wound up doing the full specialties in anyway.
Yes, I can see, as someone said, that some instructors may charge a vastly reduced fee for the AOW card and manual--perhaps IF you took 5 full specialties with that instructor. And, I understand that a shop could give you whatever deal they like if you do a lot of business and take lots of courses from them. It was also discussed on SB way back when about how little it actually costs to make a plastic card. I know, paperwork, people have to be paid, it's a business, etc.

This would be a situation where PADI could charge the cost of making and sending the card (and no buying of the manual) as a show of good faith, as opposed to what the shop or instructor may do for you.
Some have disagreed with me. It's just the feeling of cheapness that hits me in this one situation.
As well, it was I who first wrote that the AOW card should be free if you have 5 specialty certs., then realized that may in fact cause laughter, so I added "or for cost and postage".
I was in a KFC years ago, ordered my meal and asked for 6 or 7 salts and 6 or 7 peppers. She said "we can't give you that many". I said OK, cancel my order". I got the condiments. Not exactly the same as the AOW thing, but I like telling that "cheapness" story.

Of course, there's the old related thread about why PADI just doesn't give you the Master Scuba Diver card once you've taken Rescue (& EFR of course), AOW, and 5 specialties (and logged 50 dives, but that has nothing to do with PADI). Some of course say it's a vanity thing (it was for me, I admit), and worth the $41 (in 2007) for the card. Others say "take the specialties you want and just don't pay a ridiculous fee for an unnecessary card that does nothing for you". Old stuff for sure, but perhaps at least a lesser fee by PADI for that MSD card would be in order. Yes, I have read in many places that some shops work it so you get the MSD card free if you take the 5 specialties with them. Those shops don't come across to me as cheap.

I recall reading that PADI makes most of it's money from materials (manuals, e learning). So if an instructor or shop includes a manual or card free then are THEY paying PADI for these?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

On page 32 of PADI's Instructor Guide / Standards it states the prerequisite for the Deep Diver Specialty course is a minimum of Adventure Diver.

On page 77 [Adventure Diver section] it states
Diver Prerequisites
• Certified as PADI (Junior) Open Water Diver
Check Section Two for minimum age prerequisites specific to each Adventure Dive.

Minimum age is 12 for Deep Adventure Diver.

I can understand the confusion. Like boulderjohn, I've never witnessed anyone going the Adventure Diver route then taking AOW.

Just looked at the 2017 (I'm inactive) Instructor Manual. I see that the the question I am asking specifically is not addressed. Extrapolation doesn't work as I was doing.

 

[NAM001]

This is a misunderstanding. AOW is a prereq for MSD, but so are five FULL specialties, not just one or the other.

I understand that perfectly the poinnt is that if you can not get a AOW without having exposure to specialty dives like deep night nav etc. then so long as you rovide proof of not just exposure but successfull completion of a fill course of those specialties, why is a AOW not just given for completing those specialties.

So follow this and tell me where I am wrong because it seams that the discussion assumes that all do OW then teh min required for AOW then start full courses for MSD

You do OW then you do 8 courses night deep nav rescue boat nitrox dry suit rescue..... You are more than qualified for a AOW card. It should be issued for the cost of the card at most

what happens in reality is that you do OW then 5 exposures to specalities get AOW then take those same exposure dives in a full course versions and get master

when you do the deep class you fill 2 requirements exposure for AOW and specialty course completion for master. So again if you did OW and then full courses why do you have nohing to prove to get a AOW. Other than MSD requires it.

 

[NAM001]

Can I assume that you understand paying for a card with AOW, and then if you complete those specific 5 specialties, paying for those 5 cards? Why then would a card be free if done in the opposite order? All of the same content and dives were completed. Either way, a shop is certainly free to provide a discount, even free on a certification card for a student, if they choose to. They still have to pay their cost for the card, of course. Again, 5 Specialties all with one shop? More likely to receive such consideration.


I can’t figure out your perceived shortcuts. AOW is in addition to the Specialties required for Master Diver, it does not take their place.

+

course completions are required for MSD if all you have is exposure dives you can not go any further than AOW
SO IF pRIOR TO GETTING YOUR AOW you do the specialty courses they should be able to count towards both aow and msd.

I seems that AOW is nothing more than a step put in the process, that step entails nothing more than exposure dives. needing nothing more than exposure dives is a short cut to get an AOW with out any real further training.

So If I came to you well papered with all requirements for a MSD except AOW completion, what would you do. (forget agency policy). If there is nothing to gained by an AOW class except the instructor getting a couple hundred for the teaching what he does not have to do. would you ask for a waiver for AOW training citing students training level already exceeds the required AOW course goals and request a card or would you actually go through the AOW class to get your 200$.

What IF I showed up with a rebreather to take the course and a log book with 200 ft dives logged? I dont think that AOW is a prereq for RB.

FYI I have a friend that is a retired navy diver ,, hard hat,/ dive coordinator/ dive instructor He can not get air because he dies not have a OW card Despite he being a deep water hard hat diver he is told he has to take the OW course to get air. They will not accept his military record and know nothing about doing the waver process to convert military training to civilian training.

 

[JackD342]

I'm just saying it makes PADI look cheap....that's all. If you take the 5 specialties first, then want an AOW card, do you still get the 5 Adventure dives that you already did in the specialties? Well, I GUESS you could if you took the whole AOW course and paid for them as part of it. So, you pay for an AOW manual that has less detail than the 5 manuals you already have from the specialties? Yes, it has ALL the specialties, not just the 5 you'll take. I did ALL the Knowledge Reviews in the old "Adventures in Diving" AOW book as it was previously called. Just for the heck of it. I was only interested in the dives I wound up doing the full specialties in anyway.
Yes, I can see, as someone said, that some instructors may charge a vastly reduced fee for the AOW card and manual--perhaps IF you took 5 full specialties with that instructor. And, I understand that a shop could give you whatever deal they like if you do a lot of business and take lots of courses from them. It was also discussed on SB way back when about how little it actually costs to make a plastic card. I know, paperwork, people have to be paid, it's a business, etc.

This would be a situation where PADI could charge the cost of making and sending the card (and no buying of the manual) as a show of good faith, as opposed to what the shop or instructor may do for you.
Some have disagreed with me. It's just the feeling of cheapness that hits me in this one situation.
As well, it was I who first wrote that the AOW card should be free if you have 5 specialty certs., then realized that may in fact cause laughter, so I added "or for cost and postage".
I was in a KFC years ago, ordered my meal and asked for 6 or 7 salts and 6 or 7 peppers. She said "we can't give you that many". I said OK, cancel my order". I got the condiments. Not exactly the same as the AOW thing, but I like telling that "cheapness" story.

Of course, there's the old related thread about why PADI just doesn't give you the Master Scuba Diver card once you've taken Rescue (& EFR of course), AOW, and 5 specialties (and logged 50 dives, but that has nothing to do with PADI). Some of course say it's a vanity thing (it was for me, I admit), and worth the $41 (in 2007) for the card. Others say "take the specialties you want and just don't pay a ridiculous fee for an unnecessary card that does nothing for you". Old stuff for sure, but perhaps at least a lesser fee by PADI for that MSD card would be in order. Yes, I have read in many places that some shops work it so you get the MSD card free if you take the 5 specialties with them. Those shops don't come across to me as cheap.

I recall reading that PADI makes most of it's money from materials (manuals, e learning). So if an instructor or shop includes a manual or card free then are THEY paying PADI for these?

YES!! Both shops and independent instructors are buying educational materials and certification “cards” from PADI and selling them to student divers, usually at a markup. The only time that PADI sells direct to a diver without a middleman is when a diver orders a replacement card directly from them. But they can also buy that replacement card through me, and allow me to keep the markup instead of PADI.

How many revenue streams do you think PADI has? It is an educational, for profit company. Books, videos, eLearning, membership dues, cards, instructor slates and such, maybe some licensing from PADI Travel Network. There are probably a couple of other minor things I forgot, but that about covers it.