Advanced penetration of the Spiegel Grove Wreck

[norwhal]

were those 500 dives really 500 dives worth of experience? Or just one experience 500 times?

As far as that overused cliche goes, I've got dozens of dives in zero visibility on wrecks, I have no doubt in regard to my own skills and you and anyone else who says I don't have enough experience to run a reel 200' inside a wreck is wasting their time. When it comes to my dive buddies, some good points have been made.

So you would deliberately lie to your charter?

Would I deliberately lie to the dive op? No. Would I go out of my way to say "I plan to run a reel as I check out a few corridors on the wreck and possibly explore some of the deeper compartments near the bow?". No.

 

[tursiops]

I have no doubt in regard to my own skills and you and anyone else who says I don't have enough experience to run a reel 200' inside a wreck is wasting their time.

Your confidence is unconvincing.

 

[norwhal]

What kind of reception do you think a group of untrained poorly equipped flutter kicking divers kicking up the silt (as witnessed in the video) would receive from real cave divers?

Agreed. Remember the leader of that dive was an instructor, I would have expected him to use a different kick. I use a frog kick with bent knees and my fins are well off the bottom. I will, as a result of your post and a few others, stress to my dive buddies that they must use a proper finning technique to avoid silting.

Your confidence is unconvincing.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

 

[norwhal]

A dive on the Spiegel Grove is an individual decision based on your skills and familiarity with the site. For me, the route to Snoopy is a swim through. This would also apply to the swim from the bow to the well deck from any of the 6 entrances on the main deck on the bow. From the starboard side, there is even a hatch shortcut into the well deck.

This is the area I'm planning to dive. It IS more of a swimthrough although that first corridor is rather long, I'd estimate it to be ~150' long.

By the way Craig I was going to message you and ask you if you were around and interested in diving with us, in mid December we're in the Keys for 2 days and then Boynton for a day (3 tanks on the Castor, the 2 nearby wrecks and a reef) and West Palm for another 3 tank dive - the 3 wreck treks (Governors, Mitzpah & Edsvag).

You see on the dive data posted, surface after a 3 minute safety stop with 378psi in the tank after taking the dip to the sand at the end of the dive. Now is that all wrong?? ehh, it's not right but that's edgy....... It's definetly not something to do with people following you...

On the dive in the video we were following an instructor. I typically surface with less than 300 psi in my main tank on most dives, as I carry a full 30 cf pony bottle. We had swam all the way from the stern mooring buoy on that dive, hopefully we will not have to do that again, if so, we won't be able to do as much of a penetration.

 

[Addison Snyder]

I typically surface with less than 300 psi in my main tank on most dives, as I carry a full 30 cf pony bottle.

How do you expect your dive buddies to deal with the razor-thin margin of error if they aren't carrying pony bottles?

 

[tursiops]

How do you expect your dive buddies to deal with the razor-thin margin of error if they aren't carrying pony bottles?

LOL, not his problem! He takes no responsibility for anything....even if they are family.

 

[norwhal]

How do you expect your dive buddies to deal with the razor-thin margin of error if they aren't carrying pony bottles?

Simple. I don't believe that 2 experienced AOW Nitrox divers with 100s of dives between the two of them, swimming down a 150' corridor at 93' following a guideline is a razor thin margin of error between life and death.

Next question?

 

[napDiver]

Since the video is edited, it's hard to judge how hard the dive actually is. But to me, it definitely looks like parts of it is a penetration in some of that video. So my comments below are in a general to any penetration dive.

I'd be more than comfortable taking people in a swim through, but they should be able to back kick and helicopter.

But for a penetration? They would have to be trained. Then I'd have to know they will use proper finning techniques for the situation, great buoyancy control, ability to handle no viz, and can do their own gas calcs with contingency. This is even with a proper guide and are requirements for the guide. I know some places and the industry does NOT always do this. This is simply because they are greedy and STUPID.

My advice:
1) Hire a capable guide and go without your siblings. It sounds like you think and maybe are more than capable of handling this with a proficient partner. Your siblings are not proficient team members. Don't let them put you at risk, nor put yourself at a higher risk.
2) If nothing stops you from doing this... Don't let your siblings go with you. Again you are adding unnecessary risk to yourself and to others.

If there was a diving accident. I'd first hope it's never a loved one... family or significant other. Then I'd hope it's not me. Regardless of act of god or what have you. You can't undo or make up for something like that.

3) I do gas calcs for any penetration... please do your gas calcs. If you simply aren't very experienced in it, there are videos and articles that can help. Rule of 1/3s. At any time in the dive... know whats your nearest exit, how much time it'll take, how much gas it'll take, how much NDL you have left, etc. Since you have calculated each segment of your dive... you can assess at each checkpoint, if you can continue with your dive plan or cut it short. If the guide is dumb, you can call the dive cause you know better. Also it will give you warm and fuzzies so your sac should be more normal. Always okay to have a lot of extra gas when **** hits the fan.

A couple of small details.
a) If your backgas is Nitrox 32, then your pony should be Nitrox 32 so your computer would have the right NDL calcs.
b) ensure you bring a reel that can and you are ready to deploy a DSMB at depth if your air runs really low
c) I'm assuming you have the proper Solo training and gear. Cutting devices, computer(s) or can use tables on the fly, lights, substitute bladder, etc.
d) I like to plan 2-3x contingencies... Loss of backgas or empty. 1st and/or 2nd stage failure on pony... But I can feather it so I can get my ass out.

Maybe a lot of my thoughts you know or thought of. That's fine... just wanted to throw out some of my thoughts and advice.

Be safe.

 

[Zef]

Wow your post above (#122) really says a lot about you, your character, and how trustworthy you are in general, and I am not even referring to the second part of that post...I am referring to the fact that you have apparently quote me as stating something in this thread that I did not and put some effort into misattributing it to me. The quote above that you are attributing to me is not something I have stated in this discussion thread and in fact is something that was included in a longer post by another SB member in post #102 and I responded to in post #103. Thist is very disingenuous of you:

I think the real issue illustrated by the thread is the blatant hubris of OP. With every suggestion from someone with 10x the experience, it's often an "ok, I guess you guys are 'barely' right, but I got this" sort of attitude. Learn some humility. I once told my cavern instructor from a few years ago "wow, so you're making around 20 an hour (in reality a lot less) to train me not to die? That's a hell of a bargain!". I'm something of a cheapskate with equipment, lodging, etc. but knowledge and training are invaluable. It's usually hard to put a price on someone telling you why a secondary tie-off exists and then applying that to subtle changes in how you place it. Like with a resume and 'years experience', were those 500 dives really 500 dives worth of experience? Or just one experience 500 times? Rules and training materials have been paid for with the blood of others. Pay attention and give yourself a good look in the mirror. You need more than a handbook on how to do something, you have a personality issue that will screw up your day eventually.

It is interesting that the OP posted a picture of himself earlier in this thread and also made that picture his avatar. What I find surprising is that despite the covid mask in the photo, the OP does not appear to be a child/teenager, yet their responses here, particularly the last handful, are anything but what I would expect from someone who looks as old as he does and has the amount of experience this person has.

While this thread may not have started with the OP acting as a troll, I certainly think that has changed and he has assumed that role.

-Z

 

[ontdiver]

The unintended consequence of this thread is that the the OP is thriving on the attention he is receiving.