Advanced Open Water Certification

[Basking Ridge Diver]

True. But now whether the dive is within your limits is in your hands. The dive shop just wants an independent evaluation of whether you're [-]qualified[/-] certified.

Fixed it for you.

 

[Bigd2722]

There is a reason for that, and it makes sense if you think about it.

It is all about liability. The dive operator and its insurance agency are concerned that they might be sued following a dive incident if the plaintiff argues that the operator allowed the victim to do an advanced dive for which he or she was not qualified. They therefore have to have some sort of standard that says the diver is qualified for the dive, and that standard must hold up in court. Let's look at two possible standards:

AOW certification: In the lawsuit, the defense points out that because it is an advanced dive, they require AOW certification. The diver had AOW certification. The operator had no judgment to make--a representative of a recognized scuba diving agency has certified that the diver was qualified. Case closed.

Take a look at the logbook and see if the diver is qualified: In the lawsuit, the defense says that they looked at the diver's logbook, and they made the judgment that the diver was qualified for the dive. The plaintiff's attorney starts drooling with anticipation of how the operator is going to be grilled on how they decide what kind of dives qualified the diver and how they were sure the logbook was accurate and just what were the qualifications of the person who made the decision that the diver was suitably advanced and....

The reason they gave was that the state of Florida required it. I personally didn't have an issue with it. 1,000 diver guy was so pissed, he went to the Cayman Islands and got his AOW

 

[redacted]

There is a reason for that, and it makes sense if you think about it.

It is all about liability. The dive operator and its insurance agency are concerned that they might be sued following a dive incident if the plaintiff argues that the operator allowed the victim to do an advanced dive for which he or she was not qualified. They therefore have to have some sort of standard that says the diver is qualified for the dive, and that standard must hold up in court. Let's look at two possible standards:

AOW certification: In the lawsuit, the defense points out that because it is an advanced dive, they require AOW certification. The diver had AOW certification. The operator had no judgment to make--a representative of a recognized scuba diving agency has certified that the diver was qualified. Case closed.

Take a look at the logbook and see if the diver is qualified: In the lawsuit, the defense says that they looked at the diver's logbook, and they made the judgment that the diver was qualified for the dive. The plaintiff's attorney starts drooling with anticipation of how the operator is going to be grilled on how they decide what kind of dives qualified the diver and how they were sure the logbook was accurate and just what were the qualifications of the person who made the decision that the diver was suitably advanced and....

Are you suggesting that a diver with an OW certification but no AOW certification is not qualified to dives deeper than 60 feet, or participate in night dives, or perform a dive where he is required to navigate; because of liability considerations?

I bet that would have a chilling effect on dive operator business.:shocked2:

 

[boulderjohn]

Are you suggesting that a diver with an OW certification but no AOW certification is not qualified to dives deeper than 60 feet, or participate in night dives, or perform a dive where he is required to navigate; because of liability considerations?

I bet that would have a chilling effect on dive operator business.:shocked2:

I am not "suggesting" anything. I am talking about the cold hard facts. When there are dives of a more advanced nature than basic open water dives, many operators require AOW certification for divers. That is because of potential liability. This has been going on for many years. It is the dive operators themselves, working with their insurance companies, that are setting these rules. No one else is imposing them on them.

 

[redacted]

I am not "suggesting" anything. I am talking about the cold hard facts. When there are dives of a more advanced nature than basic open water dives, many operators require AOW certification for divers. That is because of potential liability. This has been going on for many years. It is the dive operators themselves, working with their insurance companies, that are setting these rules. No one else is imposing them on them.

I somewhat agree but I would use the term "some" dive ops, not "many"; and I don't believe it is due to insurance company requirements. Or, at least it is not because the insured does not have other alternatives. In TX, I only know of a missile silo site that has such a requirement and I suspect that is not liability driven as a business decision designed to sell more AOW training. I'm not sure what is driving such a requirement in the NE but suspect it is dive op who just thing AOW (and redundant gas) is a good requirement. I was always somewhat surprised that the FGB operators had no such requirement as almost all their dives were in the 80 to 130 ft range. Their insurers apparently have no such requirement.

 

[KeithG]

I somewhat agree but I would use the term "some" dive ops, not "many"; and I don't believe it is due to insurance company requirements. Or, at least it is not because the insured does not have other alternatives. In TX, I only know of a missile silo site that has such a requirement and I suspect that is not liability driven as a business decision designed to sell more AOW training. I'm not sure what is driving such a requirement in the NE but suspect it is dive op who just thing AOW (and redundant gas) is a good requirement. I was always somewhat surprised that the FGB operators had no such requirement as almost all their dives were in the 80 to 130 ft range. Their insurers apparently have no such requirement.

and maybe we need to morph your "some dive shops" into the concept of "some locations".

my OW has never been viewed as an issue at any of the locations i dive. i have never even thought about buying an AOW card. not needed where i dive.

there is no scuba police. just dive ops and insurance companies and anal DMs. none of these apply for Bonaire dock dives....

 

[boulderjohn]

I think that anyone reading the thread and not just one or two posts will see that I was talking about SOME operators and SOME locations. These are locations deemed to be a little more advanced than typical OW sites. You won't see any post in this thread that even remotely hints at the word ALL.

I dive at one such location in New Mexico regularly. It is on private property. The owner of the property requires not only that anyone who dives there have at least AOW certification, all divers must be under the insured supervision of one of a handful of dive instructors that have her permission. Those instructors have to have current liability insurance that names her and the property as additional insureds. I am one of those instructors. Every time I take a group there, I must have every diver sign a liability release specific to that property, and I must hand in a photocopy of a qualifying certification card for everyone--including myself. (I cannot begin to estimate how many copies of my certification cards she has on file.) The property owner has no other connection to diving whatsoever, so she is not trying to sell AOW certifications. She is very much afraid of being sued.

 

[redacted]

I think that anyone reading the thread and not just one or two posts will see that I was talking about SOME operators and SOME locations. These are locations deemed to be a little more advanced than typical OW sites. You won't see any post in this thread that even remotely hints at the word ALL.

I dive at one such location in New Mexico regularly. It is on private property. The owner of the property requires not only that anyone who dives there have at least AOW certification, all divers must be under the insured supervision of one of a handful of dive instructors that have her permission. Those instructors have to have current liability insurance that names her and the property as additional insureds. I am one of those instructors. Every time I take a group there, I must have every diver sign a liability release specific to that property, and I must hand in a photocopy of a qualifying certification card for everyone--including myself. (I cannot begin to estimate how many copies of my certification cards she has on file.) The property owner has no other connection to diving whatsoever, so she is not trying to sell AOW certifications. She is very much afraid of being sued.

What proportion of your trips to that site (Blue Hole?) include participants who are your AOW students?

 

[boulderjohn]

What proportion of your trips to that site (Blue Hole?) include participants who are your AOW students?

That site is not the Blue Hole. The Blue Hole is in the middle of Santa Rosa, is owned by the city, and is a popular site for OW instruction. The Blue Hole is about 85 feet maximum depth, 60 feet across at the surface, and 120 feet across at depth. It has great visibility, and you can usually see all the way across it at the bottom. There are no limitations other than being n active student or a plain OW card.

As I clearly said, the site I am talking about (Rock lake) is on private property. It is nearby, but it is a much more advanced site. Rock Lake is between 300-400 feet across at the surface. I don't know anyone who knows how big it is at depth. Like all sinkholes, it is bell shaped, and it is too big to check out the total size. Nor do I know anyone who is sure what the maximum depth is. The few people who go to the bottom have hit maximums of about 300 feet, but since you can't stay down long enough to explore the whole thing, you can't really be sure about anything.

The last time I was in Santa Rosa (two weeks ago), I spent the first few days at the Blue Hole, and one of the students I taught finished his AOW class. I spent the next two days at Rock Lake. Even though the AOW student had completed that certification, the owner would not let him dive at Rock Lake. She was too nervous about allowing anyone to dive there only one day after getting AOW.

 

[KeithG]

She is very much afraid of being sued.

and too many lawyers! Happily,this is not the case in the rest of the world.