Adequacy of OW and AOW

[TSandM]

Well, I will say that I came out of OW mindful of risks . . . I knew I wasn't supposed to run out of gas, and that I wasn't supposed to hold my breath, and that I had to control my ascent rate, and not go into deco or overheads. It didn't mean I didn't have great experiences, like an uncontrolled ascent from 70 feet. What you know you shouldn't do, and what you have the skills to prevent, are different things.

I wonder if things would be different, if diving weren't a commodity being sold. By that, I mean that the person goes to the dive shop to buy access to scuba diving (and if he gets it, is likely to buy gear from the shop), and the shop's motivation is to give the customer what he wants and leave him happy. So telling someone they are unsuitable to dive is to be avoided at all costs, and even telling them they need more work (which they will have to make time and pay for) is to be avoided.

In tech diving courses, you know going in that you pay for the class, but earn the card. Maybe we should be applying a bit more of that mentality to earlier classes?

 

[ScubaFeenD]

However, regular OW and AOW are similar in the sense that neither involves failure-based training where the instructor 'messes' with you and you have to 'survive'.

Failure-based training, which get's introduced later in Tec or Cave, solidifies skills to the point where you fix a problem first and get scared later. It also allows you to develop a better 'snafuometer', as drydiver called it, because you expect things to go wrong.

I have been fortunate enough to take part in failures based training, and I think that is what current OW and AOW curriculum really lacks. Students just dont get to experience stress in an environment that can kill them until they are in a situation that can really kill them. It was a deficiency when I learned to dive and it still is. Further, emergency procedures taught to "save" divers from themselves (ie drop weights and make a CESA) is just silliness when compared to techniques that should be taught to be used first (ie how to properly share air and maintain control in that situation). BUT, classes dont teach that (at least they didnt when I learned it, and newer students I meet dont tend to have a mindset of dealing with issues underwater), and that is a real disservice to the students.

hmmm, maybe its just me, but which scenario do you think more quickly adjusts a snafuometer?

A - drills in classes where you expect things to happen and the instructor is right there
B - real life where it is just you and your buddy when you aren't "expecting" anything thing to go wrong and the **** hits the fan

While I think failure based training can have its perks with students who thrive in that learning environment, I have seen some pretty big egos grown there as well. Confidence which exceeds experience, to be more precise. That has just been my observation, generalization not intended.

Looking for dives where there is always something new and challenging? Mentor new divers fresh out of OW, never a dull moment

When would you rather learn how you respond to and deal with emergencies underwater?

A- in a more controlled situation where you can actually properly learn
or
B- real life/death emergency

In real failures based education, expecting something to go wrong doesnt mean jack, because the number of failures is artificially high, and learning to manage them all is difficult. It does result in a competence and confidence though, and most importantly in comfort. The confidence/comfort that is born from extremely difficult failures based training might be what you are confusing as ego. BUT, I have seen some divers with a decent # of dives (300-500) who couldnt recognize a potential emergency underwater because of a failure to properly learn what is a real problem and how to respond to that as well--all possible failures of OW and AOW training. I think failures training with an instructor that knows what they are doing makes a diver far more capable at recognizing what might compound itself as a problem. Just my opinion though.

Well, I will say that I came out of OW mindful of risks . . . I knew I wasn't supposed to run out of gas, and that I wasn't supposed to hold my breath, and that I had to control my ascent rate, and not go into deco or overheads. It didn't mean I didn't have great experiences, like an uncontrolled ascent from 70 feet. What you know you shouldn't do, and what you have the skills to prevent, are different things.

I wonder if things would be different, if diving weren't a commodity being sold. By that, I mean that the person goes to the dive shop to buy access to scuba diving (and if he gets it, is likely to buy gear from the shop), and the shop's motivation is to give the customer what he wants and leave him happy. So telling someone they are unsuitable to dive is to be avoided at all costs, and even telling them they need more work (which they will have to make time and pay for) is to be avoided.

In tech diving courses, you know going in that you pay for the class, but earn the card. Maybe we should be applying a bit more of that mentality to earlier classes?

I dont know if just learning that you shouldn't hold your breath, not going into overheads, not shooting to the surface, etc should be counted as adequate even if the student it taught control. Gas management, which has made a huge impact in my diving, was never taught to me, and is not taught to a majority of students Ive met who recently certed either. There are many instructors here on the boards that teach this right away, but many more instructors probably cant do it themselves let alone teach it.

I agree that the mentality of tec training shouldn't be restricted to that realm at all. I hope the rec agencies get their shiznit together and move past the pay-for-cert system that is in place currently.

 

[The Chairman]

So telling someone they are unsuitable to dive is to be avoided at all costs, and even telling them they need more work (which they will have to make time and pay for) is to be avoided.

Lynn, I don't think that this is the norm at all. I was taught through my Instructor course that it's our due diligence to make sure that we acquire a medical statement from our students indicating that they CAN dive as well as present the risks to them in a clear and concise manner albeit without undue hysteria.

That being said, people asking me to learn to dive come with a variety of motivations including some external ones. I don't feel comfortable only teaching those whose motivations I approve. That does not stop me from declining to teach someone who has an attitude that is incompatible with safe diving. Regardless of the outcry, I don't feel that I am the exception.

In tech diving courses, you know going in that you pay for the class, but earn the card. Maybe we should be applying a bit more of that mentality to earlier classes?

Again, I believe that most instructors do just this.

At the root of a lot of the criticism in this thread (Not TS&M), is the underlying tone that people teach sub standard Scuba due to being greedy. It amazes me that with the alleged prevalent pecuniary motivations that we seem to have so few RICH instructors... like maybe none!

Most people who get into this industry buy into the "dream". Whether they be instructors or shop/charter owners, their initial motivation is to turn their beloved hobby into their equally beloved livelihood. Yes, there are a few jaded denizens who have lost sight of the fun and seem bent on certifying quantity over quality. It would seem that they are the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I had to answer no to the question in the literal sense. "Did the training prepare you to recognize the risks scuba diving entails and did you leave with the skills to deal with real emergencies on the next dive after getting the cert?"

Taking that as the actual question to be answered it did not. I will be the first to say that the instructor was very good at getting the skills across and knew the OW manual almost to the page. What was not included was the knowledge of the real risks in terms that made them seem like actual risks. And worse no skills to deal with an incident had one happened with me and a buddy. If my buddy were to have gone unconscious I would not have known how to get them to the surface safely. Had they begun to panic I most likely would have just gone right up to them to try and help. I had no gas management other than be back with 500 psi and what actual thirds means when planning a dive. So in that I guess I got more than many seem to be getting today. But there was no discussion of SAC rates and how to calculate them. Up thru DM! I learned how to do that here on Scubaboard.

Buddy procedures were not drilled into me the way I do them in my classes. I was also taught to trust the DM and did so. And that caused me to have my first OOA on dive number 13 when I blindly followed her not knowing my gauge was off by 300psi. I showed her the gauge reading 700 and instead of beginning our ascent she took me to find the instructor at 50 feet from our place at 25. Hey she was the pro, she knows what she's doing, right?

I learned a few things the hard way. I had no idea what I was doing the first few times I went below 100ft following AOW. Because it wasn't conveyed just how dangerous that was. I mean heck, go down, compare gauges, open a combination lock, and come back up. No mention of what you do for an air share at that depth and how much gas you need. Rock bottom was what was under the 4-6 feet of silt at the bottom of the lake!

I will say that it was more than adequate in one sense. It was more than adequate in that when I elected to become an instructor it helped me to move away from that program and choose one that not only allowed, but required me to teach the the things I feel should be in an OW and AOW class. I even wrote my own AOW to include all those things I felt were lacking.

 

[Peter_C]

My PADI open water class was a joke. I did not feel it was adequate at all for most people.

The largest benefit I had was I grew up with a pool in my back yard and swam most every warmish day. We had done just about everything we could to kill ourselves underwater and hadn't succeeded, so maybe scuba diving is the answer for me. When I went into open water I was already comfortable with every skill and drill we performed. Well that and I already had numerous dives in the open ocean, including hours and hours of free diving/snorkeling. From surfing and wakeboarding, let alone pool time, I had already had water shot into every orifice, and am used to being underwater without an immediate air source. This builds confidence in the water and helps keep panic further away.

I would venture to say most open water students do not have the comfort level to have their mask ripped off and their reg ripped out of their mouths at the same time without panicking. Unfortunately if this occurrence does happen, their reaction may not be the right one.

 

[Buoyant1]

As a course curriculum, both are adequate.

Detract points if the instructor sucks!

Add points if the instructor is great!

 

[ScubaFeenD]

At the root of a lot of the criticism in this thread (Not TS&M), is the underlying tone that people teach sub standard Scuba due to being greedy. It amazes me that with the alleged prevalent pecuniary motivations that we seem to have so few RICH instructors... like maybe none!

Just because instructors aren't rich doesn't mean they dont just care about money. Perhaps because they AREN'T rich they end up more desperate for money and aren't willing to chase away a paycheck just because the students aren't fit to dive.

 

[Token]

My OW training gave me the basics [haven't gotten to AOW yet] but I think the important thing is being aware that you _don't_ know it all and need lots more experience before you should consider yourself an Advanced diver.

I'm quite comfortable and confident in the water. I've actually been complimented on my buoyancy skills and general abilities as a diver. All of this is very nice...but I remind myself every time I go in the water that I have to think VERY hard about what I'm doing and not get lost in the moment and forget safety rules, and to dive within my capabilities. Given that I'm basically a holiday diver, I don't know if I'll ever get to the point where I consider myself "Advanced". Guess I'll see, sooner or later... One thing I do know is that passing some tests and getting a card in my pocket doesn't mean very much at all.

 

[The Chairman]

Just because instructors aren't rich doesn't mean they dont just care about money. Perhaps because they AREN'T rich they end up more desperate for money and aren't willing to chase away a paycheck just because the students aren't fit to dive.

Personally, I think it's wrong to disparage an entire profession/industry based on incredibly limited information. They're not lawyers after all!

 

[Bob DBF]

When I did actually get a card in 1980 I took a NAUI/PADI class in northern Northern CA. The instructor was quite thorough because of the harsh diving conditions on the coast and the lack of any support in the event of a casualty. There is still no cell service along most of the coast, and houses for landlines can be few and far between.

It was not as demanding as what my dad expected, but we were both learning at the same time out of a book as certification was not need to dive or fill tanks. I think he just wanted his gear back.


Bob
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I may be old, but I’m not dead yet.