Adding base layer to Wetsuit...

[John C. Ratliff]

Okay, I’m a very old wetsuit diver, who’s never used open cell wetsuits. I cannot see how they would be warmer at the same thickness as a closed-cell wetsuit. Please explain that to me? Open-cell means that water can come into the wetsuit material, at least that is my interpretation of the term. Water dramatically removes more heat than air bubbles or nitrogen bubbles in a close-cell wetsuit. To me, that precludes this style from being “warmer.” Again, please explain.

I have used wetsuits in freezing water, without problems. The main problem with a closed-cell wetsuit is when going deeper, and the suit itself compresses, loosing a lot of its heat-retaining properties. At 100 feet, the wetsuit is not real warm in freezing water, and a dry suit is required.

I have used a hooded vest, and also in the ol’ days we used a jacket with an attached hood successfully in very cold water. Now, it is difficult to get a custom-cut wetsuit (one made exactly to your body dimensions), and also the use of stitching by some manufacturers causes holes in each seam, which pump water in and out, making the modern wetsuit much colder than their predecessors. We used to have “skin one side” wetsuits, which were blind-stitched on the nylon side. We wore them “skin-in” so that we needed to use corn starch to get into them, but when taken off they dried quickly and were still warm for the second dive.

SeaRat

 

[Jcp2]

Okay, I’m a very old wetsuit diver, who’s never used open cell wetsuits. I cannot see how they would be warmer at the same thickness as a closed-cell wetsuit. Please explain that to me? Open-cell means that water can come into the wetsuit material, at least that is my interpretation of the term. Water dramatically removes more heat than air bubbles or nitrogen bubbles in a close-cell wetsuit. To me, that precludes this style from being “warmer.” Again, please explain.

I have used wetsuits in freezing water, without problems. The main problem with a closed-cell wetsuit is when going deeper, and the suit itself compresses, loosing a lot of its heat-retaining properties. At 100 feet, the wetsuit is not real warm in freezing water, and a dry suit is required.

I have used a hooded vest, and also in the ol’ days we used a jacket with an attached hood successfully in very cold water. Now, it is difficult to get a custom-cut wetsuit (one made exactly to your body dimensions), and also the use of stitching by some manufacturers causes holes in each seam, which pump water in and out, making the modern wetsuit much colder than their predecessors. We used to have “skin one side” wetsuits, which were blind-stitched on the nylon side. We wore them “skin-in” so that we needed to use corn starch to get into them, but when taken off they dried quickly and were still warm for the second dive.

SeaRat

I think your skin one side is the same as what freedivers refer to as open cell. Nylon side on the outside.

 

[Brett Hatch]

Okay, I’m a very old wetsuit diver, who’s never used open cell wetsuits. I cannot see how they would be warmer at the same thickness as a closed-cell wetsuit. Please explain that to me? Open-cell means that water can come into the wetsuit material, at least that is my interpretation of the term. Water dramatically removes more heat than air bubbles or nitrogen bubbles in a close-cell wetsuit. To me, that precludes this style from being “warmer.” Again, please explain.

I have used wetsuits in freezing water, without problems. The main problem with a closed-cell wetsuit is when going deeper, and the suit itself compresses, loosing a lot of its heat-retaining properties. At 100 feet, the wetsuit is not real warm in freezing water, and a dry suit is required.

I have used a hooded vest, and also in the ol’ days we used a jacket with an attached hood successfully in very cold water. Now, it is difficult to get a custom-cut wetsuit (one made exactly to your body dimensions), and also the use of stitching by some manufacturers causes holes in each seam, which pump water in and out, making the modern wetsuit much colder than their predecessors. We used to have “skin one side” wetsuits, which were blind-stitched on the nylon side. We wore them “skin-in” so that we needed to use corn starch to get into them, but when taken off they dried quickly and were still warm for the second dive.

SeaRat

JBL International has a decent video on youtube explaining the differences. Granted, they are a wetsuit manufacturer who sells open cell suits, so you might take what they have to say with some grain of salt. The main takeaway I had is that the smoother open cell adheres more closely to the diver's skin, which yields an improved seal versus the polymer coating of a closed cell suit.



For what it's worth, my Deep6 3mm wetsuit is mostly closed cell with a fleece liner, but it has a good 6 inches or so of open cell neoprene at the wrists and ankles, and maybe 2 inches at the neck. That makes it more difficult to put on without lube, but it greatly reduces the amount of water that ingresses at the seals. At the end of a dive, it's not uncommon for me to be completely dry from my chest down to my knees or so (unless nature called...). With a fully open cell suit, since it adhere closely to most of diver's body, I would expect it to further inhibit water from traveling from one part of the body to the next, and keep the diver more dry. That's my understanding anyway, I have not tried diving a full open cell suit myself yet.

 

[halocline]

Look into the Fourth Element Thermocline stuff. Non buoyant and made for wetsuit layering.

Yep, and I believe other brands have similar products. I have a Bare hooded vest that is advertised as neutrally buoyant that I wear under a 5mm wetsuit for added warmth.

 

[johndiver999]

Okay, I’m a very old wetsuit diver, who’s never used open cell wetsuits. I cannot see how they would be warmer at the same thickness as a closed-cell wetsuit. Please explain that to me? Open-cell means that water can come into the wetsuit material, at least that is my interpretation of the term. Water dramatically removes more heat than air bubbles or nitrogen bubbles in a close-cell wetsuit. To me, that precludes this style from being “warmer.” Again, please explain.

I have used wetsuits in freezing water, without problems. The main problem with a closed-cell wetsuit is when going deeper, and the suit itself compresses, loosing a lot of its heat-retaining properties. At 100 feet, the wetsuit is not real warm in freezing water, and a dry suit is required.

I have used a hooded vest, and also in the ol’ days we used a jacket with an attached hood successfully in very cold water. Now, it is difficult to get a custom-cut wetsuit (one made exactly to your body dimensions), and also the use of stitching by some manufacturers causes holes in each seam, which pump water in and out, making the modern wetsuit much colder than their predecessors. We used to have “skin one side” wetsuits, which were blind-stitched on the nylon side. We wore them “skin-in” so that we needed to use corn starch to get into them, but when taken off they dried quickly and were still warm for the second dive.

SeaRat

Freedive wetsuits are generally made with no liner on the inside of the suit. This feature is generally referred to as open cell. However, this nomenclature is not correct.

Open cell foam is technically foam that has voids in it which are interconnected - like a sponge that absorbs water. As far as I know, all the neoprene that is used in wetsuits is closed cell neoprene , meaning water can not pass through the material - assuming it is undamaged or has seams in it.

The unlined interior of freedive suits can be made in two different textures. One is a completely smooth rubber. This means the cells or voids in the material do not connect to the surface. The other texture is where a thicker slab of foam neoprene was split into multiple layers. On the inside edge of each split layer, you can see where the internal voids or cells, have been cut in half. This makes for a somewhat "matte" looking finish on the rubber. The smooth rubber is from the external outside edge of the neoprene. So on a thick slab of foam neoprene, you can make two layers or sheets with smooth layer on one side (from top and bottom) and the remainder of the sheets or layers are from internal sections of the raw sheet and thus both sides are not smooth. That is what was explained to me from a wetsuit manufacturer, anyway.

Freedive suits are much warmer because they eliminate all zippers, they have attached hoods, they have raw neoprene on the inside (smooth or textured) which drastically reduces ingress of external water into the suit. The end result is that the freedive suit has essentially zero water moving into and out of the suit and this has significant benefits from a thermal efficiency standpoint. A good quality wetsuit is constructed with seams that do not leak water, other than scuba suits which are made for warm water and have sewing that punctures the neoprene and allows significant leakage - which should be inconsequential- since these suits are thin (1.5 to 3 mm) and are only made for warm water.

 

[ScubaSquatch]

I have lavacore and sharkskin tops that can be worn stand alone or under a wetsuit both work fantastic.

Buy from you LDS if possible but here are the tops I use.
Lavacore
Sharkskin

 

[Compressor]

Nice discussions and great suggestions in this thread. Up to now, I've been using a wetsuit with a Lava Core or some kind of vest over the wetsuit. This options allows flexibility especially for the traveling diver. Take a 3 or 5 mm suit for your destination along with a vest or some Lava Core equivalent. Then you can customize what you wear at the site depending on the conditions.

 

[John C. Ratliff]

I'd like to thank all you who answered my question above, especially JohnDiver99 and Brett Hatch. The term "open cell," as JohnDiver99 explained, is a misnomer, and really confused me. I've been diving a very long time (1959) and the original wetsuits were pretty warm, but lacked a backing of nylon, so were prone to ripping. I had glued my original suit many times. My first two suits were White Stag, and they had no nylon at all. Then I went with Harvey wet suits and bought what we then called "nylon out, skin in" suits, which I used for many years. Those were also warm suits.

The normal production wetsuits should use "blind stitching," to ensure that they don't poke all sorts of holes through the neoprene, but many don't. These suits "leak" or pump water through the suit, and so are very cold. These are made for tropical waters, where the suit's function is not all warmth, but protection from coral.

The photos show me on a research dive in Clear Lake, Oregon in 1971, wearing my wetsuit in 37 degree waters. This particular suit had no lining, and was a "Farmer John" bottoms with an attached hood. It also was a custom-made suit, meaning cut to my dimensions (I understand that option is still available, but you have to look to get a custom suit).

Now that I know that "open cell" means actually "skin in, nylon out," I can proceed to get a new one when my current suit "bites the dust."

Thank you.

SeaRat

 

[Brett Hatch]

I'd like to thank all you who answered my question above, especially JohnDiver99 and Brett Hatch. The term "open cell," as JohnDiver99 explained, is a misnomer, and really confused me. I've been diving a very long time (1959) and the original wetsuits were pretty warm, but lacked a backing of nylon, so were prone to ripping. I had glued my original suit many times. My first two suits were White Stag, and they had no nylon at all. Then I went with Harvey wet suits and bought what we then called "nylon out, skin in" suits, which I used for many years. Those were also warm suits.

The normal production wetsuits should use "blind stitching," to ensure that they don't poke all sorts of holes through the neoprene, but many don't. These suits "leak" or pump water through the suit, and so are very cold. These are made for tropical waters, where the suit's function is not all warmth, but protection from coral.

The photos show me on a research dive in Clear Lake, Oregon in 1971, wearing my wetsuit in 37 degree waters. This particular suit had no lining, and was a "Farmer John" bottoms with an attached hood. It also was a custom-made suit, meaning cut to my dimensions (I understand that option is still available, but you have to look to get a custom suit).

Now that I know that "open cell" means actually "skin in, nylon out," I can proceed to get a new one when my current suit "bites the dust."

Thank you.

SeaRat

Thanks John, and thanks @johndiver999 . It's interesting to learn about the evolving nomenclature here. It sounds like the distinction between scuba and freediving suits is still somewhat useful, but the language has gotten kind of messed up over the years. And the now-ubiquitous "open cell" and "closed cell" descriptions really don't make a lot of sense. Funny how that happens.

Can you tell us some more about the Clear Lake dives in '71? I'm interested in what that plumbed canister is about, the one sitting between the 2 tanks on your back. At first glance I thought it might contain an SCR or CCR counterlung, but that really doesn't seem right for 1971, and the plumbing doesn't look right either. Curious

 

[chillyinCanada]

When needed, I add as I go. First, the Bare Chillguard, then my suit. If I need more, then I add the Sharkskin overtop (i was surprised to find that it kept me warmer that way rather than trying to wear it under the suit. I also have a series of beanies that I'll wear one at a time or two at a time, or ditch them and pull on the heavier bibbed hood.

This system doesn't require any weight changes as most of the items are neutral.