The statement is not borne out by reality. No matter what we think the system should be, it is what it is, and novice divers are not dying left and right.
accident rate without supervisors
- Thread starter MikeFerrara
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The statement is not borne out by reality. No matter what we think the system should be, it is what it is, and novice divers are not dying left and right.
Sad, but true!
I don't understand the mind set on a diver (or anyone for that matter) that goes into a foreign environment and thinks he or she knows enough to fore-go some help.
I thought that was the DMs job.
Even if you have been on that particular dive with the same group of people, it would seem to me that common courtesy would demand that you listen to the DM and take advice accordingly
stiebs
Contributor
That's an interesting point you raise, Nick. On virtually all the Melbourne (Victoria, Australia - not FL, USA) charter boats, the DM as such stays on deck with a rig ready to go. You do need to be properly certified for the level of the dive, which usually includes a number of logged instructor/DM supervised dives in the area. This is how I learned to dive.
My sister got cert'ed in Malaysia, and the only diving she knew was with a DM acting as an underwater tour guide for a group of 4-6 divers. She was quite surprised on her first dive back here in Melbourne when I told her that it was not normal practice to have to follow a DM wherever he leads you.
Of course they do encourage new divers, and those unfamiliar with the dive sites to request to dive with a DM.
It is in these sort of scenarios, where ego can get the better of someone, and allow them to quietly go along with the dive, and pretend that they have sufficient experience and ability to cope with an unfamiliar diving environment.
To my sister's credit, she was very forthcoming with questions and concerns, where a lot divers may not have. (I usually hate to generalise, but this generally seems to occur with younger males. I know I was in that group a few years ago)
Scuba
Contributor
I agree with MechDiver and Walter.
The point is that in an activity where it takes many dives and many hours to become proficient for most, no matter how good the training is, are these students ready to be on their own after 5 dives and 2 to 3 hrs. practice without any further guidance or supervision?
Just because someone dives and comes back, does not mean they did it safely, or much less that they could have handled an emergency situation. We all have to start somewhere and some will make the right decision when it comes time to, others won't. The more and better the training is will ensure that more make the right decisions. Its a fine line between too little and too much.
The point MechDiver brings up is a good one, if training is so dismall how come they're not dropping like flies?
I suppose there are many factors involved:
Training is sufficient to prevent serious injury when common sense is exercised.
Most divers will use common sense and take a conservative approach, even though we hear about and dwell on the careless ones.
Diving is an inherently easy to practice and safe activity when common sense, and a little conservatism is used.
Quality of gear.
Buddy system.
Many, only or primarily dive under supervision while on vacation.
Many drop out of the sport after training or soon after.
Many who persevere and probably do the bulk of all dives seek more advanced training.
Many who stay in the sport without much more training learn from other divers, experience, and don't take unnecessary risks.
The point is that in an activity where it takes many dives and many hours to become proficient for most, no matter how good the training is, are these students ready to be on their own after 5 dives and 2 to 3 hrs. practice without any further guidance or supervision?
Just because someone dives and comes back, does not mean they did it safely, or much less that they could have handled an emergency situation. We all have to start somewhere and some will make the right decision when it comes time to, others won't. The more and better the training is will ensure that more make the right decisions. Its a fine line between too little and too much.
The point MechDiver brings up is a good one, if training is so dismall how come they're not dropping like flies?
I suppose there are many factors involved:
Training is sufficient to prevent serious injury when common sense is exercised.
Most divers will use common sense and take a conservative approach, even though we hear about and dwell on the careless ones.
Diving is an inherently easy to practice and safe activity when common sense, and a little conservatism is used.
Quality of gear.
Buddy system.
Many, only or primarily dive under supervision while on vacation.
Many drop out of the sport after training or soon after.
Many who persevere and probably do the bulk of all dives seek more advanced training.
Many who stay in the sport without much more training learn from other divers, experience, and don't take unnecessary risks.
is really about efficiency underwater - not safety.
The guy with poor trim is not typically unsafe. He's just inefficient. He hooves more air than he needs to because of it, and he might silt out the bottom, but dangerous?
Not usually.
Where it becomes a problem with trim and weighting issues is when you are faced with a wall dive and effectively no floor. Then suddenly poor buoyancy control and improper weighting become dangerous. Most divers, however, are trained in places where the floor is <X> feet, not because they only go that deep, but because to go deeper requires dredging equipment!
The truth is that equipment these days is pretty darn good. Couple that with a bit of common sense and the sport isn't really all that dangerous. Its telling that a goodly percentage of the fatalities are coronary events - which would have killed you on the golf course, on your bicycle, or driving your car.
The guy with poor trim is not typically unsafe. He's just inefficient. He hooves more air than he needs to because of it, and he might silt out the bottom, but dangerous?
Not usually.
Where it becomes a problem with trim and weighting issues is when you are faced with a wall dive and effectively no floor. Then suddenly poor buoyancy control and improper weighting become dangerous. Most divers, however, are trained in places where the floor is <X> feet, not because they only go that deep, but because to go deeper requires dredging equipment!
The truth is that equipment these days is pretty darn good. Couple that with a bit of common sense and the sport isn't really all that dangerous. Its telling that a goodly percentage of the fatalities are coronary events - which would have killed you on the golf course, on your bicycle, or driving your car.
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Jus in case anyone got the wrong impression here, DM handholds are not standard in FL, USA either! If you want a guided dive in Florida, you'll pay extra at 99.9% of all operations. This is NOT Cozumel where divers are hand held through every move they make.
Melbourne FL does it the same as the other Melbourne
Tom
OP
I disagree that trim and buoyancy control translate to efficiency rather than safety. If one has poor trim (usually head up) they sink when they stop kicking. So...they kick all the time. They cause siltouts, buddy seperations and rapid ascents. If they go deep they have carbon dioxide trouble and they are always overexerted some go through the entire dive near panic. Where I dive these divers do get hurt. I have seen many ambulance runs and countless near misses.
Leaving the heart attacks out because we can't do much about them what figures prominently in the DAN report? Buoyancy control problems. It seems clear that the single thing that would prevent the most accidents is better basic skills. Poor trim and buoyancy control does more than make you inefficient it makes you unable to manage a problem or task and keep control while you do it.
Leaving the heart attacks out because we can't do much about them what figures prominently in the DAN report? Buoyancy control problems. It seems clear that the single thing that would prevent the most accidents is better basic skills. Poor trim and buoyancy control does more than make you inefficient it makes you unable to manage a problem or task and keep control while you do it.
Gotta disagree with you on this Mike. I see plenty of divers with poor trim that have good buoyancy control. People with poor buoyancy control will not have good trim.
IMO its safe to say divers with good trim have good buoyancy but because a diver has less than perfect trim does not IMO automatically mean they have bad buoyancy control.
I have seen some Caribbean DMs take people still carrying blue paper temp cards down to 80-90' on wall dives that these people would probably not have done had a DM not led them down there. Do these types of incidents cause any accidents?
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