Accident at Vortex Springs 8-20-10

[Kevin Carlisle]

Okay...like the difference between one alcoholic drink and several. I didn't stay at depth long enough to test it out. But certainly isn't that part of training...to see where your narc level becomes overtly impeding to your abilities? Of course whilst your instructor is watching you as well.

Mary not sure where you were diving, but I havve been told there is a difference between cold and warm water. I have only done one dive below 140 in water above 68 degres. I didn't notice being narked there either.

 

[Cleavitt]

Okay...like the difference between one alcoholic drink and several. I didn't stay at depth long enough to test it out. But certainly isn't that part of training...to see where your narc level becomes overtly impeding to your abilities? Of course whilst your instructor is watching you as well.

'Narcosis management' is generally covered in decompression, 'extended range', and trimix diving courses.

You can easily be up to the level of 'a few drinks' or more by 150' on air. Remember that nitrogen nacrosis starts as soon as you dive under the surface and gets progressively worse as you descend. For most people it doesn't start to have a measurable effect until around 100'. By 130' it's usually noticable if you know what you are looking for. At 150' it should be clearly noticable, but many people don't recongnize it in themselves because of the smooth progression from surface to depth.

Like others have said, if everything is normal and you are just swimming around enjoying the dive nitrogen narcosis may not be obvious. Especially if you don't know how to recognize it or you aren't making an effort to 'test' yourself. However, when you suddenly find yourself in a situation that requires critical thinking, you might be in trouble.

EDIT: As Kevin mentions above, the environment and individual physiology can exacerbate the effects of nitrogen narcosis. Limited visibility and cold water can make it much worse, probably because you are having to rely on your brain more since sight and feeling is limited. A dark cave environment is arguably the worst case scenario in terms of adding to a person's level of narcosis. For this reason, one of the 5 major rules of cave diving is related to depth (or equivenlent depth if using Trimix).

 

[alohagal]

Here's a video of a lost line drill I did during class just over 2 years ago in JB (more flow than most any tourist cave).-
http://static.ak.fbcdn.net/rsrc.php/z4OG5/hash/7qkbs3nb.swf?v=528073356615&ev=0

When push comes to shove, that flow isn't nearly as easy of an indicator as it's made out to be in textbooks. That being said, as I've gained more experience (which Ben didn't have) it's rather obvious.

Wow...your video speaks a thousand words. I was so busy watching with elevated vital signs, I forgot you were even addressing flow till I came back to your post.

I am going back to watch. Thanks for sharing.

 

[alohagal]

My personal opinion is that I doubt very much that you did not experience narcosis at 150' on air. I do believe that it is possible that you did not realize that you were narc'd. Try preparing some flash-cards with easy math problems and take them down to 100 feet. Also, bring some nuts and bolts and a length of string. Try doing the math problems, thread and un-thread the bolts, and tie the string in a bow around one of your hoses. Repeat at 150 feet. Your may find that at 150' your mind is still crystal clear, only the math problems just got harder and the nuts and bolts now have threads that no longer match. As for the string - who knows where it went to - you don't care.

I have learned the error of my ways. I know you are all right. Absolutely, performing those skills would be compromised... and indeed one does not need to be OVERTLY narced to have issues thus begin. Not to mention in a complete overhead environment. My bad.

 

[alohagal]

Mary not sure where you were diving, but I havve been told there is a difference between cold and warm water. I have only done one dive below 140 in water above 68 degres. I didn't notice being narked there either.

I dive all warm water. Never have worn a dry suit. I have dove cenotes in Mexico and Vortex and Morrisons twice up to the warning sign. That is far enough for me.

 

[Divedoggie]

Here's a video of a lost line drill I did during class just over 2 years ago in JB (more flow than most any tourist cave).-
http://static.ak.fbcdn.net/rsrc.php/z4OG5/hash/7qkbs3nb.swf?v=528073356615&ev=0

When push comes to shove, that flow isn't nearly as easy of an indicator as it's made out to be in textbooks. That being said, as I've gained more experience (which Ben didn't have) it's rather obvious.

Thanks for the answer by providing excellent video. You simulated silt out by keeping eyes closed? Or it was just that difficult to re-establish the main line?

I have done quite a bit of spelunking over the last 30 years and am familiar with all of the twists, turns, cracks, false tunnels, nooks, obstacles and so on that present themselves in a cave. Rarely are passages perfectly straight forward. As a drill, I have felt my way through areas in caves with my lights off.
Even when spelunking, we travelled with buddies, set markers, ran line, had multiple back-up lights, told someone topside of our plan, wore harnesses and carried extra climbing gear, rope, and extra food and water. Even in familiar caves we would occassionally find ourselves going in circles and temporarily becoming lost.

Underwater cave exploring creates a huge number of additional variables: both to diving and to cave exploring.

Ben has hundreds if not thousands of people following this story on the internet, on site, and via any other source. We are rooting for the recovery teams and the investigators to resolve this mystery. Our imaginations are spinning trying to visualize the situation and to find answers.

I'm speculating that in order to circumnavigate traditional training, Ben read and studied every resource that he could find in order to "self teach" cave diving. Even though he made many leaps of bad judgement, it seems that he had some ideas concerning cave diving techniques and had some familiarity with the cave. I just can't help but think that he is not anywhere near the back of the cave and that he turned at the point where the line was broken.

I thought maybe the direction of flow might assist in at least determining the direction back toward the exit.
The video of UCFdiver speaks volumes though.

 

[ucfdiver]

Thanks for the answer by providing excellent video. You simulated silt out by keeping eyes closed? Or it was just that difficult to re-establish the main line?

I have done quite a bit of spelunking over the last 30 years and am familiar with all of the twists, turns, cracks, false tunnels, nooks, obstacles and so on that present themselves in a cave. Rarely are passages perfectly straight forward. As a drill, I have felt my way through areas in caves with my lights off.
Even when spelunking, we travelled with buddies, set markers, ran line, had multiple back-up lights, told someone topside of our plan, wore harnesses and carried extra climbing gear, rope, and extra food and water. Even in familiar caves we would occassionally find ourselves going in circles and temporarily becoming lost.

Underwater cave exploring creates a huge number of additional variables: both to diving and to cave exploring.

Ben has hundreds if not thousands of people following this story on the internet, on site, and via any other source. We are rooting for the recovery teams and the investigators to resolve this mystery. Our imaginations are spinning trying to visualize the situation and to find answers.

I'm speculating that in order to circumnavigate traditional training, Ben read and studied every resource that he could find in order to "self teach" cave diving. Even though he made many leaps of bad judgement, it seems that he had some ideas concerning cave diving techniques and had some familiarity with the cave. I just can't help but think that he is not anywhere near the back of the cave and that he turned at the point where the line was broken.

I thought maybe the direction of flow might assist in at least determining the direction back toward the exit.
The video of UCFdiver speaks volumes though.

Closed eyes. You can see the line over in the corner with your eyes open, but it's up on a ledge in a breakdown room. Each big rock blocks the flow, so while difficult to swim, when you're low to the floor in that area, there's really no flow.

During full cave, it was done without lights, and between two lines. I first found the wrong line (a jump), but had to determine that since that line ended very soon, it certainly wasn't the one we had been swimming on. Keep situations like that in mind when thinking about perspective...finding a line doesn't mean you've found a way out.

The correct way to determine flow is to stop EVERYTHING, let it push you. But when you're new, you don't have the patience to let things develop, that was my issue in the video.

 

[iztok]

Thanks for the answer by providing excellent video. You simulated silt out by keeping eyes closed?

I am assuming it was a blacked out mask.

 

[alohagal]

'Narcosis management' is generally covered in decompression, 'extended range', and trimix diving courses.

You can easily be up to the level of 'a few drinks' or more by 150' on air. Remember that nitrogen nacrosis starts as soon as you dive under the surface and gets progressively worse as you descend. For most people it doesn't start to have a measurable effect until around 100'. By 130' it's usually noticable if you know what you are looking for. At 150' it should be clearly noticable, but many people don't recongnize it in themselves because of the smooth progression from surface to depth.

Like others have said, if everything is normal and you are just swimming around enjoying the dive nitrogen narcosis may not be obvious. Especially if you don't know how to recognize it or you aren't making an effort to 'test' yourself. However, when you suddenly find yourself in a situation that requires critical thinking, you might be in trouble.

EDIT: As Kevin mentions above, the environment and individual physiology can exacerbate the effects of nitrogen narcosis. Limited visibility and cold water can make it much worse, probably because you are having to rely on your brain more since sight and feeling is limited. A dark cave environment is arguably the worst case scenario in terms of adding to a person's level of narcosis. For this reason, one of the 5 major rules of cave diving is related to depth (or equivenlent depth if using Trimix).

My first deep dive was in the Blue Hole in Belize. It was over an hour on the boat to get there. And they drilled narcosis into your head. I went to 142 feet and did not feel out of it. But...no doubt skills are affected.

 

[iztok]

I am assuming it was a blacked out mask.

Well I assumed wrong then