Accident at Vortex Springs 8-20-10

[Hockeynut]

This was a very good discussion. I was also pleased to see the level of emotion kept to a minimal, since the focus of this forum is analysis, not condolences.

My thoughts are quite different about prevention.

Yes, we agree that we can all kumbaya on the same lesson learned, which is the same "dive only within your training and experience level"; but this lesson with be "relearned" over and over again in the future. I think we should go further.

First of all, since a cave like Vortex is well known and open to the public, why not do more to insure it can be dived safely? Why not install, for example, (1) a minimal system of underwater lights and/or (2) emergency air (breathing gas) stations at key jumps and/or (3) some emergency signaling device and/or (4) highly reliable (not breakable) lines, in a highly public cave.

In other words, since some caves are well known, very public and without any workable means to insure that unqualified divers do not dive there; instead of simply blaming death on the divers, why not make some caves more safer by investing money in one or more of the "off the top of my head" bullet items above or suggest other things/mechanisms/safety devices/controls to make cave diving safer? Not all caves, of course; but there must be some public, well known, caves, perhaps like Vortex, where the owners (or a diving club or association) could invest in making the cave safer for all (trained, qualified, certified, and/or foolish), versus the current "it is an accident waiting to happen" and "dive at your own risk" and "it is always the divers fault because they are not well trained" themes (and "lessons learned") we read about repeatedly.

You should run for congress.

 

[BabyDuck]

funrecdiver, i've spent $1500 plus on my three cave diving lights. they are good lights. they have to be recharged every couple of hours dive time, or if a backup, batteries replaced. placing lights - totally not practical.

oxygen is only safe to breathe at or above 20ft, so i'll assume you meant 'safe to breathe gas'. you can't leave bottles beyond an impossible to safely define time limit, because they could leak out or the parts break down from being immersed, and if they're part of your dive plan, you're unpleasantly surprised that they don't have gas. placing bottles - totally not practical.

if you come up with a signaling device that works underground & underwater, that might be a good thought. i don't know of any. gps doesn't work. so signaling device - not currently possible.

if i get caught in a line and need to cut it, unbreakable line just killed me. not gonna happen.

i know this is a shootdown, and i don't mean it unkindly, but really, the best idea is for the untrained and uneducated to keep themselves safe by staying out until they get the training & education.

 

[ucfdiver]

First of all, since a cave like Vortex is well known and open to the public, why not do more to insure it can be dived safely? Why not install, for example, (1) a minimal system of underwater lights and/or (2) emergency air (breathing gas) stations at key jumps and/or (3) some emergency signaling device and/or (4) highly reliable (not breakable) lines, in a highly public cave.

In other words, since some caves are well known, very public and without any workable means to insure that unqualified divers do not dive there; instead of simply blaming death on the divers, why not make some caves more safer by investing money in one or more of the "off the top of my head" bullet items above or suggest other things/mechanisms/safety devices/controls to make cave diving safer? Not all caves, of course; but there must be some public, well known, caves, perhaps like Vortex, where the owners (or a diving club or association) could invest in making the cave safer for all (trained, qualified, certified, and/or foolish), versus the current "it is an accident waiting to happen" and "dive at your own risk" and "it is always the divers fault because they are not well trained" themes (and "lessons learned") we read about repeatedly.

Caves are a way to get closer to nature and enjoy it. We've ruined enough dry caves like this, there's absolutely no need to do it to submersed ones. I would never dive a cave again that had the items you mentioned, for me it defeats the purpose.

 

[Scott]

First of all, since a cave like Vortex is well known and open to the public, why not do more to insure it can be dived safely? Why not install, for example, (1) a minimal system of underwater lights and/or (2) emergency air (breathing gas) stations at key jumps and/or (3) some emergency signaling device and/or (4) highly reliable (not breakable) lines, in a highly public cave.

I'm not a cave diver but I see this doing more harm than good. I believe it would lure more non qualified divers ino a cave.
Most cavers carry mulitple lights incase one fails. Adding lights would not lessen their redundancy.
Adding "air stations" would only allow those who have planned a dive around that mix. There are simply to many options.
I'm sure the guys that maintain the current lines would love someting like that, but somebody will fined away to help pull them through some restrictions and foul it up anyway.

Just my .02 from a non caver.

 

[Cave Diver]

I hope that the official report or link to it will be posted on this thread later when it is available.

I'll keep the first post updated with additional verified information of any kind that becomes available and bump the thread. I wouldn't bet on seeing any sort of official report for a while though.

 

[bamamedic]

This was a very good discussion. I was also pleased to see the level of emotion kept to a minimal, since the focus of this forum is analysis, not condolences.

My thoughts are quite different about prevention.

Yes, we agree that we can all kumbaya on the same lesson learned, which is the same "dive only within your training and experience level"; but this lesson with be "relearned" over and over again in the future. I think we should go further.

First of all, since a cave like Vortex is well known and open to the public, why not do more to insure it can be dived safely? Why not install, for example, (1) a minimal system of underwater lights and/or (2) emergency air (breathing gas) stations at key jumps and/or (3) some emergency signaling device and/or (4) highly reliable (not breakable) lines, in a highly public cave.

In other words, since some caves are well known, very public and without any workable means to insure that unqualified divers do not dive there; instead of simply blaming death on the divers, why not make some caves more safer by investing money in one or more of the "off the top of my head" bullet items above or suggest other things/mechanisms/safety devices/controls to make cave diving safer? Not all caves, of course; but there must be some public, well known, caves, perhaps like Vortex, where the owners (or a diving club or association) could invest in making the cave safer for all (trained, qualified, certified, and/or foolish), versus the current "it is an accident waiting to happen" and "dive at your own risk" and "it is always the divers fault because they are not well trained" themes (and "lessons learned") we read about repeatedly.

First off, any diver who goes into an overhead environment without the proper training is solely responsible for their own actions....

If I'm driving at 120 mph in my Miata and I wreck and die....is it the auto manufacturer's fault for not installing a governor to limit the top end speed? Why didn't Mazda do more to ensure that inexperienced drivers not violate their own training standards? Or is it my fault because I know the dangers and I foolishly chose to ignore them?

Vortex is a relatively benign cave up to the gate...not perfectly safe by all means, but there's really no side passages to get lost in. Of course, it still carries all the dangers of an overhead environment. There is a 3 inch (I think) blue pipe that extends from the cavern up to the gate, so the passage is well marked.

Past the gate, it's a totally different animal. Anyone diving past the gate better be well aware of their limitations.

I genuinely hope your "bullet points" never get implemented...the solution is not to make the cave "safer" for inexperienced divers...this only teaches them that cave diving is like that everywhere, and will only serve to encourage them to dive other caves, less benign caves.

Wish I had more time to expound upon this, but I gotta get to work, saving the world from itself

 

[mike_s]

My question is about his dive log and how it was available to be viewed. I ask this out of ignorance because I am not familiar with the dive log. Obviously this is something that every diver has and it must be very personal information for Ben to write about his trick with the lock/gate. Surely something with such incriminating info would not be left for anyone to view.

I've never thought of a dive log as "incriminating". But in this case it provided that he didn't have the training for the caves he was diving in it appears...


I doubt it was left in plain view.

but standard procedure for a missing person is for the authorities to search the missing persons vehicle for clues/evidence of them being missing. The dive log was most likely sitting in the vehicle. That's often where it's left, in the "dive bag" with the other gear not used.

most likely the authorities did not know how to decipher if the person was trained for the cave system by reading it themselves, but depended on "subject matter experts" at the scene that they routinely enlist for such recoveries. These are respected members of the dive community.

I'm sure several "subject matter experts" examined the logs and were all in concurrence on the status/state of his training (or lack of it).

Something like this is pretty routine procedure in the event of a diving death.


They would have also reviewed his logs for "dive profile" plans. This might indicate his gas planning (what gases he had), where he was going, estimated times in/out, locations/paths, etc. It would be used to narrow the search.

 

[alohagal]

Does anybody find it eerie that Wes Skiles shot that video?

Yes, I found it eerie that Wes Skiles name pops up at the end. That bit of footage made my heart race, adrenaline pump and makes me certain beyond a shadow of a doubt I never want to be a cave diver. That was spooky stuff to the uninitiated.

I have had the honor to meet some of the cave divers posting here today. But, I still think friends and family have every right to leave no stone unturned...no matter how ugly...to get answers. Right now...this thread is all they have.

We can be a little kinder and allow them to have raw feelings on an ONGOING delicate situation.

The recovery team are qualifed/trained/experienced enough to know how far they can go. That is why they are so respected in this field.

Ben did not die in vain as far as I am concerned. I think many silent readers here on this thread take away serious lessons from this event. NUMBER 1: Do not dive beyond your training. Only then will you know what you do not know!
Caves are exponentially dangerous when untrained.

Ben will serve his purpose. He donated his entire body to help others who come after him with ill considered notions to go where they should not. Perhaps this "mishap" will give pause to those who felt they would be good to go when they are not. Rest in Peace Ben.

 

[Hetland]

Why not do more to insure it can be dived safely?

Why not put handrails on every mountain? Nerf pads on every car? Have a doctor dispense all drugs?

Do you want to ride to work in a four point harness and a helmet? It would make you safer. Cars kill more people in America than guns and underwater caves combined. This cave was "safer" than most because it was gated off, but someone found a way around it.

Someone will always find their way around safety measures.

Not all caves, of course; but there must be some public, well known, caves, perhaps like Vortex, where the owners (or a diving club or association) could invest in making the cave safer for all (trained, qualified, certified, and/or foolish), versus the current "it is an accident waiting to happen" and "dive at your own risk"

Who decides? Who gets sued when someone finds a lesser known cave and dies because extra safety measures were not instituted?

"it is always the divers fault because they are not well trained" themes (and "lessons learned") we read about repeatedly.

It is always the diver's fault unless there is a manufacturing defect in some piece of gear that couldn't be detected by normal inspection, It will always be the diver's fault, because ultimatly, it is the diver that swims into the cave. No one pushed, pulled, prodded, or poked. A diver gets there under his own power.

 

[Dive-aholic]

I have not been in Vortex for a number of years, so I may not remember it correctly, The restriction that this diver may be past, is it the fairly wide one that is only about 16 inches high? Also, are scrapes in the clay the only indication that he is past this very tight restriction? If it is the restriction I am thinking about, I am amazed anyone was able to squeeze through it. Condolences to family and friends, and best regards to IUCRR team members.

It is not a wide restriction. We have made it to the final restriction on the map.

An 8" gap?? Man, that is TINY. I don't see how they even think he could have squeezed back there at all!

I have been in 8 inch high passages. I used 7.25 inch tanks, but it is possible. Also, keep in mind that the floors of these passages are usually covered with silt that can be dug out to make the passage a little bigger.

At some point the body recovery is NOT worth the risk. Is the recovery team close to that point?

The search wasn't called off. A team just went down not too long ago.

Recovery efforts ended Saturday. One diver went in today to look one last time. The body was not found.

I don't think the dive team today were local divers.

You are incorrect.

Watch this video about 2:17 in. It will show you how tight you can get without removing tanks. These guys are removing tanks, so it's smaller than that.
YouTube - Sidemount diving in Rock Bluff

SM caves are absolutely no joke. It's why I hate the idea of OW SM courses, or transitioning divers to SM so early, it's super easy to get places you don't belong.

The passage in the video is pretty big.

Some of us are a bit confused by the nearly non-stop barrage of the accusations that Ben tampered with the lock or gate; however there was at least one person on site when the accident scene started as evidenced by the very first posting on the other forum. The poster clearly states, without hesitation and as a first party witness, the following: "Just then the new owner operator lady started talking and she stated the key to the gate was checked out on Wednesday by a male and it was never returned" It is implied that she has made this statement to a deputy sheriff, if so it is now a matter of public record and I will be filing to have the report sent to me straight away.

This overlooked fact is important for surely it speaks to the character of the person. It is one thing to overestimate one’s ability, but it is another matter altogether to willfully break the gate and enter anyway. If Ben checked the key out then obviously his intent was to enter and enter in the proper procedural way, if he lacked proper experience to do so then he should not have been given the key. If he forced the lock, this accident is then and only then what most of you have stated.

Having now read all posts by the original witness/first poster, I do not believe he has a propensity to embellish nor willfully lie therefore I for one believe what he has said, further at the time of his posting he was first on scene before any facts were known therefore there would have been no need or thought to cover up the fact that Ben legitimately checked the key out. Fast forward to now and there certainly would be a reason to cover this up as a man with no proper certification should not have been allowed to do so and in doing so negligence by the owner of the spring has been established.

It further seems to me that the largest body of discussion on the topic of the gate is nothing more than the regurgitation of something someone else has stated previously, going all the way back to the news conference and statement by Mark wherein he publicly stated that the lock had been jimmied. The fact is the lock may have indeed been jimmied but it is also true that the owner stated that Ben checked the key out on Wednesday. The lock may have been tampered with prior to Ben's arrival at the gate. I have also read that it was the hinge that was tampered with, what I would like to know is does anyone have any direct firsthand knowledge of exactly what happened to the gate or lock? And by first hand I do not mean a phone call, text, email or any other acquisition of this knowledge by any means other than looking at it with your own eyes or touching it with your own hands?

The first and mostly like scenario is that the original poster is exactly correct when he states that the new owner told the sheriff that Ben checked the key out and further that the owner is now fully aware of the liability of this statement and is doing everything possible to retract it and miss direct.

It is also true that if Ben did not in fact "jimmy" the lock that he is not quite the reckless individual that he is being painted as. He has done a whole lot more for his fellow man than most of his detractors on this board and his mark on this world will not be left in the cold darkness of a lonely cave, it won’t be left by how well he has expressed his point on an obscure forum read by those who leave their marks on this world in a cold dark and lonely cave either, it will be left by those who know this man, and by those who love this man and by those who have life today through his foundation.

In closing I would simply like to say that for the next man who wishes to attack this man, whom you do not know, please first post the resume of your life and tell us all how it justifies you in casting the first stone because as far as I know there isn’t a man walking this earth that has the right to judge this man but most assuredly hasn’t the right to justify or comment based on hearsay evidence, i.e. the tampering of the gate. If you can’t or won’t post this resume then at the least post what good in this world you have done that justifies the wanton hubris you possess in saying such things as you have about Ben. At the very least if you wish to state your opinion then you should at least have the courage of your convictions and be able to state them outside of your peer group, in other words come to Ben’s memorial and state your opinion there as well as well as what give you the right to say it. Absent that, you should all leave your discussions to accident prevention measures for the future of your sport and leave the comments of who he is as a person to those who know something about the person.

Regardless of what was previously posted, the gate was very obviously tampered with. Ben was also directly told about a month and a half ago by a cave diving instructor that he had no business going into an overhead environment without the appropriate training. So even if the key was signed out to him, he knew he didn’t belong in there.

So I just heard the diver that went down today didn't find anything. He said he didn't see any sign of anyone being that far in the cave. Where else could he be? Could the spring have carried him out? Didn't they think he was in a deep and extremely narrow space?

If he got wedged in a small solution tube, it’s possible the flow in that system could have blown enough silt around him to cover the body up by now. This is just speculation, but I have seen what high flow can do, and the flow in Vortex is high enough to clean out markings from backmount divers going through restrictions.

Who went today?

Edd.

I have diving sidemount for 23 years, and never seen anyone attempt an 8" gap.

I’ve gotten stuck in smaller. I know this because it was my 8 inch tanks that got me stuck. I had to go back with 7.25 inch tanks.

If location is identified, but recovery not possible, then what?

Do they close off a section?

No point in closing off the section where the body is possibly located since there aren’t many people that can get back there.

For those familiar with Vortex:
Are there any high ceilings or cracks close to the cave entrance or in the cavern area where a positively buoyant diver could be pinned? I wonder if the underside of the docks have been checked.
Its possible in a panic that he nearly found his way out but was either OOG, blew deco, or attempted a buoyant ascent.

We checked all of those areas.

"Mondays 8 tank deep penetration solo dive. I will post something on it later. To sum it up... 4 stage, 2 bottom, and 2 deco bottles for a 232 minute 148 ft deep cave dive with a total penetration to the end of system at aprox. 810 ft!!!!"

A perfect example of the wrong attitude.