Accident at Vortex Springs 8-20-10

[Salient]

Well, see this is where its touchy. The lock was not touched but I will not mention any specifics I know about it. I do think details were posted earlier. It makes no difference to me wether he had the key, broke the lock or tore the gate down. This kind of Foolishness has to stop. Yeah I take it personally when someone without the credentials does this. Its situations like this that causes access to caves to be harder to get. Like I said, we know how you feel, but if I die this weekend it will look a lot better than an untrained person in a cave.

Well Kevin lets hope you don't die, I for one wouldn't want to read about that even it furthers the point you are so eloquently making. I appreciate your comments and insight into the lock though.

 

[iztok]

I think that measure is willful intent. I for one would be much less angry with a man who knowingly walks through my gate and drowns in my pool than with a man who sees the lock on my gate, breaks it and then drowns in my pool. I would almost want to express that he got what he deserved and this distinction is what is raising the passions and opinions of the posters on this forum. If Ben didn't willfully break it then he is not quite the same person that some are saying, he is simply a guy who made a tragic mistake and overestimated his ability not a given given to careless disregard for human life.

Difference is just in degree one is willing to go to do what one knows it is not right in the first place. Key here is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Ben knew (not just he should have known, he fully knew) that what he was doing is well beyond what he should be doing.

If I don't have a drivers license and I sit in a car and drive and wreck does it make me less of an issue if I jimmied the car or was the key already in? In either case it is endangering others.

 

[ROMO DIVER]

I have followed this thread closely as I spend way too much of my life at Vortex. It appears to be one of the more instructive and focused threads I have read on the Board.

While I most assuredly do not condone the behavior of the gentleman I am not sure why you state that he has put the lives of the recovery team in jeopardy. I know the majority of the recovery team personally and I am sure they are doing what they are doing because they have a desire to help the family and not because someone is putting a gun to their head and making them. If the team is risking anything it is by choice and not because the lost diver made them. I have participated in numerous search and recoveries both in and out of the water and at no point have I ever been made to do something I want to do.

 

[Airleron]

This cave gets smaller than that, with a clay pocked floor. Too small for me with HP100's.

Holy Hell. My stomached turned when I read that.

 

[lucky1]

Based on what is said it appears quite clear this tragedy was avoidable. However, until a thorough analysis of the incident is satisfactorily completed it seems premature to make conclusions. It is quite possible something no one has considered occurred, and there might be real value in determining causal factors. I am uncomfortable reading many statements posted here that are unsupported and conclusive.

 

[Meister481]

Do I have anything to contribute, is that your question? Damage control is done by people trying to limit damage, for Ben's family the damage is done. I don't work for the spring and if anyone would be doing damage control it would be them.

No offense, but the only thing you have to contribute to this post is all second hand knowledge. You weren't there Wednesday when a key was given to somebody. You've never been to the cave and you don't even know what the lock looks like.

You DO have an intimate knowledge of the diver and his character. The fact that he has done good things for the community is not in question.Those facts are not relevant to this discussion, this is a thread about what he did while diving at Vortex.

If this site closes over this it will injure the very same people who went in and risked their lives to try to find his body.

 

[iztok]

Do I have anything to contribute, is that your question? Damage control is done by people trying to limit damage, for Ben's family the damage is done. I don't work for the spring and if anyone would be doing damage control it would be them.

Salient, Ben planned this dive. Having key or not is irrelevant. It is not like he stumbled to the gate and either saw the gate open or figured hey, I just found this key in my pocket that opens the gate.

His intent was to go beyond the gate regardless what obstacle it presented. He planned and knew he has the way to get past the gate before he entered the water.

 

[Salient]

I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on the internet, but I do know the following for sure...

Every time ANY diver goes into the water, he or she is the person responsible for his or her actions.

I am not just talking about going into a cave, I am talking about jumping off of a dive boat in the Caribbean, walking into the sea from a sandy beach, giant striding off a dock into a quarry, or walking down the steps into a spring like what Ben did.

Each diver is responsible for his own dive, each and every time he gets into the water. That is a fundamental rule of diving that a lot of non-divers are just not aware of.

We each decide what our dive plans are going to be, we each decide if our dive is appropriate for our certification levels. We each decide if the water conditions are within our limits, if we enough air to dive our plan... etc...

However Ben got past that gate, the simple fact of the matter is he CHOSE to get past that gate. Nobody forced him to do it. There was not a gun to his head. It was a choice, just like when I dove Vortex a couple weeks ago I chose not to leave the light zone and go beyond my level of training by doing so...

Let me tell you a quick story, since you haven't been there. In Vortex, the front of the cavern leads down to the Reaper (which you saw pictured earlier in this thread). That reaper is positioned next to a wide tunnel that is filled with some really cool wildlife (eels, fresh water critters of several descriptions, etc) and is EXTREMELY inviting to go down. I admit it, I was tempted to go down the tunnel, and around the corner to see the next room. But... that would take me out of the light zone, and I am only Cavern certified. It was not part of my dive plan, so I dove the plan we had made and I became determined to GET THE TRAINING that will allow me to take it to the next level.

That's how it is done.

That doesn't make me or anybody else a better person than Ben, but it does mean that I have a LOT better chance of coming up our of that cave than somebody whose dive plan is to go far, far beyond his level of training and certification.

Whether the gate was open or not, the simple fact is he should have not been AT the gate in the first place, let alone through it. He chose to go through the gate, he planned to go through it and he did. Was that a wise plan? No. But he went in there, knowing that is what he was going to do.

I am sorry for what happened to Ben, and I am somewhat in awe of the talents and skills of the community of people who are trying to recover his body... but my feelings or anybody else's feelings doesn't change this simple fact:

Irregardless of the quality of the person out of the water, he CHOSE to broke several of the cardinal rules of diving in a cave, he CHOSE to go a place he wasn't trained or equipped for, he CHOSE to go past the gate (however it happened) that he had no business going through, and he unfortunately didn't make it back out of Vortex cave.

We all make our choices when we dive, every one of us. These threads here are Scubaboard are here not because divers are a bunch of ghouls, quite the contrary. We, to a person, HATE to see people die while diving. We do this so that we can understand what happened, and to help ourselves and everybody who reads this make better choices in our own diving in the future.

Thank you for the info Sabbath, that was very informative. I am not an attorney, I am also not a direct friend of Ben's. I simply know people who are close to his parents and I feel tremendously sorry for the their utter loss. I originally started reading this thread for more information. A few people, and I truly mean just a few people, commented in ways that were well beyond informative information on the incident and were moreover only attacks on a man they do not know. If I, who was not his friend can see an attack, then how much more will his friends and family feel that attack personally? It is not necessary. To speak of the dead in such a way is neither constructive nor informative, and while this cant be controlled it can certainly be defended. Their is a difference in discussing the wrong of what he did and attacking his personality.

 

[Mark Michaud SELAUSAR]

Where in the thread has something been posted disputing the validity of the original poster stating that the he heard the the owner state that the key was checked out?

I have more than a few dives in this cave. For the most part there have almost always been 2 keys. Eduardo has 1 and the other is in the shop or with a diver, Many days I have had to find Eduardo and get his key because someone left with it or it was not easily accessable.

In spite of this, I have always had to give the desk my cave card and di not get it back til I returned the key to Eduardo or the desk hey know me well (former management) and I still have to give them my card.

For them to ask about the whereabouts of the key is not unusual, as it is not handed out that often.

For Mat to say the logbook said something and that he witnessed the added lock, is something you can trust. Mat's intergity is solid and he owes no one there anything, ie...covering for them.

It is what it is and for those of you who were close to Ben, it has to hurt alot. But as was said before, most of the time we never know what happened. In this case there is a lot of evidence that shows Ben was a very lucky man until this incident. But as I said, it is what it is.

Many people go through life without seeing a body except for funerals. The group of divers who have been working on this are made up of a crosscut group of society. Had they found Ben, some of them may start having trouble in their lives (PTSD). This affects everyone involved and the actions of the recovery diver's are completely self-less, until it is too dangerous to go on.

As a rule, the recovery divers foot their own bill for the costs, not to mention giving of their time. Tri Mix fills are terribly expensive. then there is food, lodging, etc. No to mention that at these depths, the diver's have placed themselves seriously into harms way.

Like I said, it is what it is.

 

[Cave Diver]

And we do blast our friends when we find out they broke any rules.

It's one of my requirements in a buddy. And I'm sure there is at least one person here on the board that will attest to personally getting an earful from me over something that happened during a dive.