Absolutely Insane Dive Video - Cozumel

[diver 85]

Is there something particular or unique about Cozumel diving that makes the dive ops require their divers descend and ascend together? Do all Cozumel boats follow this procedure?

All drift diving..........none of the 10k boats are moored ie all are constantly moving........Watch out for the bouncing boat(s) once you hit the surface......

Again I'll say, some people here need to take up bathtub diving--talk about SAFE..........

 

[TONY CHANEY]

I've handed off my long hose to a dive buddy or student without feeling the need to head straight for the surface...

so are you an instructor and condone this type of DM behavior?

 

[Mr Carcharodon]

If you have an issue maybe you should practice doing air shares until it is a non-event. The diver in the video did not appear to have issues with the air share.

 

[TONY CHANEY]

If you have an issue maybe you should practice doing air shares until it is a non-event. The diver in the video did not appear to have issues with the air share.

Stupid comment and it adds nothing to this thread!

 

[Ricky B]

In an effort to move this issue away from the realm of ad hominem argument and emotion, I pose the following hypothetical, which has nothing to do with the video. Forget the video for now.

Assume the following:

1. There are six divers, one DM and five paying guests, who stay reasonably close together following the DM in warm, high viz waters.
2. The DM is highly experienced in this type of dive.
3. The DM is a low consumer of air and the guests are, in varying degrees, much higher consumers of air.
4. Each diver starts off with 3,000 psi.
5. When the first diver gets to 1,200 psi, the DM is at 2,000 psi.
6. At 100 feet of depth, the DM hands his long hose to the low man on air.
7. The DM slowly starts an ascent to shallower depth.
8. When the DM gets to 1,000 on his air, the group is at 45 feet of depth, everyone else has more than 1,000 psi left, and the DM takes back his long hose and the guest diver goes back on to his own air, which (as assumed above) is at 1,200 psi.
9. The group ascends from 45 feet of depth to 15 feet at a rate of 30 fpm, which therefore takes one minute in ascent time, and the group takes a three-minute (or longer) safety stop.
10. There is no equipment failure; everyone has a primary and secondary second stage in working order.
11. The air-sharing procedure was discussed in the pre-dive briefing.
12. The divers actually listened to the pre-dive briefing (the hardest assumption to accept).​

Do any of the critics of the practice depicted in the video think that under the assumptions stated (not what was seen in the video) the air-sharing in this hypothetical is unsafe?

The question posed calls for a yes-or-no answer.

The nature of a hypothetical is that you have to take the assumptions as stated. No one has to respond to this post and answer the hypothetical, but if you do, remember that this is a hypothetical, and you'll appear pig-headed by ignoring or arguing with the assumptions.

If you do think that the air-sharing is unsafe under the assumptions stated, please be so good as to explain why.

 

[The Chairman]

Since this isn't an emergency it seems as though any rule in scuba diving can be disregarded. I'm sure there were never any incidents that involved sharing air with someone.

What rule? From what rule book? Can you quote this from whatever book you learned from?

What would Peter Sotis say about promoting this practice?

I don't know: ask him. Most instructors that I know of don't have an issue with this practice.

Have you heard of ... "What you permit, you promote"?

ScubaBoard is very, very inclusive. We allowed discussions about solo diving before any agency accepted it or made or made it into a specialty. Many were as strident as you about how we were responsible for bad divers everywhere.

I'm not saying it's going to kill anyone by doing it, I'm simply questioning whether or not we should glorify such a practice and explain that it happens all the time so it must be safe.

Can we get any more emotional about this? I mean, who here has "glorified" it? The problem we have is in the histrionics condemning it. Get it in perspective.

I could be completely wrong. Just a guess.

That's a distinct possibility. I've been wrong before. Once. Apparently, I was merely mistaken

Could it be that you, NetDoc, are catering to your customers (scubaboard) similarly to the DMs in Coz by being lenient on proper diving practices?

Wow. Do I "cater" to my customers. Guilty. Am I lenient on improper diving practices? Not guilty. Actually, people have commented that I'm a trim and neutral buoyancy nazi. I've had a few instructors suggest that the way I teach (no kneeling) is impossible. It's gratifying to see a few of those now join me in teaching this way. In fact, my negative comments about the vid was the fact that he was not trim and sculled a lot. That's poor form in my eyes, and if he had been trim and neutral, he would not have needed additional air to finish the dive.

so are you an instructor and condone this type of DM behavior?

I am. I'm even a Regional Training Director. Thanks for asking!

 

[Garth]

What rule? From what rule book? Can you quote this from whatever book you learned from?

I don't know: ask him. Most instructors that I know of don't have an issue with this practice.

ScubaBoard is very, very inclusive. We allowed discussions about solo diving before any agency accepted it or made or made it into a specialty. Many were as strident as you about how we were responsible for bad divers everywhere.

Can we get any more emotional about this? I mean, who here has "glorified" it? The problem we have is in the histrionics condemning it. Get it in perspective.

That's a distinct possibility. I've been wrong before. Once. Apparently, I was merely mistaken

Wow. Do I "cater" to my customers. Guilty. Am I lenient on improper diving practices? Not guilty. Actually, people have commented that I'm a trim and neutral buoyancy nazi. I've had a few instructors suggest that the way I teach (no kneeling) is impossible. It's gratifying to see a few of those now join me in teaching this way. In fact, my negative comments about the vid was the fact that he was not trim and sculled a lot. That's poor form in my eyes, and if he had been trim and neutral, he would not have needed additional air to finish the dive.

I am. I'm even a Regional Training Director. Thanks for asking!

Ok. I'm not an instructor so I don't know every rule or guideline by all the agencies so I will concede that I was wrong.

It still doesn't "feel" like it is a good idea to do this from my perspective but it is only that. I admittedly don't have any rule, guideline or anything else to say this should not be done so I suppose I'll move on.

If this was done in an overhead environment would it be different?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---------- Post added April 10th, 2014 at 07:44 AM ----------

In an effort to move this issue away from the realm of ad hominem argument and emotion, I pose the following hypothetical, which has nothing to do with the video. Forget the video for now.

Assume the following:

1. There are six divers, one DM and five paying guests, who stay reasonably close together following the DM in warm, high viz waters.
2. The DM is highly experienced in this type of dive.
3. The DM is a low consumer of air and the guests are, in varying degrees, much higher consumers of air.
4. Each diver starts off with 3,000 psi.
5. When the first diver gets to 1,200 psi, the DM is at 2,000 psi.
6. At 100 feet of depth, the DM hands his long hose to the low man on air.
7. The DM slowly starts an ascent to shallower depth.
8. When the DM gets to 1,000 on his air, the group is at 45 feet of depth, everyone else has more than 1,000 psi left, and the DM takes back his long hose and the guest diver goes back on to his own air, which (as assumed above) is at 1,200 psi.
9. The group ascends from 45 feet of depth to 15 feet at a rate of 30 fpm, which therefore takes one minute in ascent time, and the group takes a three-minute (or longer) safety stop.
10. There is no equipment failure; everyone has a primary and secondary second stage in working order.
11. The air-sharing procedure was discussed in the pre-dive briefing.
12. The divers actually listened to the pre-dive briefing (the hardest assumption to accept).​

Do any of the critics of the practice depicted in the video think that under the assumptions stated (not what was seen in the video) the air-sharing in this hypothetical is unsafe?

The question posed calls for a yes-or-no answer.

The nature of a hypothetical is that you have to take the assumptions as stated. No one has to respond to this post and answer the hypothetical, but if you do, remember that this is a hypothetical, and you'll appear pig-headed by ignoring or arguing with the assumptions.

If you do think that the air-sharing is unsafe under the assumptions stated, please be so go as to explain why.

No. I don't think this is a safe way to plan gas for a group.

But I am not a DM in charge of a group. I commonly dive with less that 4 people and plan enough gas for myself, plus gas for an emergency for myself or buddy.

I also did not learn this in any class to extend the bottom time of a group so if you could reference the agency that you learned this from ( in the class ) that would be great.

Is this an option? We've seen and heard that a lot of people do this. Is it taught in a class is what I would like to know.

Garth


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[supergaijin]

Some interesting responses here and IMO some very defensive responses towards an underwater practice that is not part of any dive agency's code of conduct.

If there was an accident during an air-share like this, the guide would be strung out to dry. Maybe he could fall back on this thread for his defense...

 

[diver 85]

If you have an issue maybe you should practice doing air shares until it is a non-event. The diver in the video did not appear to have issues with the air share.

He might have 'practiced' on his 3 previous(or more) dives........ie, I'm thinking that's not his(divers) 1st rodeo, @ this....But then --on the other hand---who really knows, diver may be a fast learner(on some things..lol)......

 

[The Chairman]

Ok. I'm not an instructor so I don't know every rule or guideline by all the agencies so I will concede that I was wrong.

Like your mask or fins, diving is all about "fit and comfort". If something makes you feel uneasy: DON'T DO IT. My second rule of diving is "You can call a dive at any time, for any reason, with no questions and no repercussions. IOW, what's wrong for you might be OK for someone else.

It still doesn't "feel" like it is a good idea to do this from my perspective but it is only that. I admittedly don't have any rule, guideline or anything else to say this should not be done so I suppose I'll move on.

Then don't do it. Develop your Scuba so you will never need it. Like I pointed out, the real culprit was trim and sculling. That wastes a ton of air. Get those under control and you will be amazed at how long your air lasts.

If this was done in an overhead environment would it be different?

Those skills (or lack of them) could have very well resulted in one or more deaths. No, not the air share, but the lack of trim and the poor kicking skills. They would have silted any overhead out in a few seconds and the ensuing panic would have made it worse.

The divers in the video are typical tourist divers. They have no desire to master some skills mostly because they were never introduced to those skills. I don't blame the divers, I blame their instructor. Hopefully, they will find SB and start to learn that they need to improve. It's a Mexican law that all these tourists have to have a guide. A local guide. It helps the local economy, but they do a few things that I would not/do not do.