'Abnormally friendly’ Critters?

[Qnape]

"Abnormally Friendly Critters" Here I thought you were talking about some DM's I've known.... Those videos are really interesting! I've never seen or heard of a grouper taking a live lionfish before! But what I really want to know is where this heard of grouper puppies were?!?! Anyone know where that was taken?

My video was taken off Pirate's Point on Little Cayman on 2/17/13. It's off the South side of the island; the wind was really kicking up that day and the North side / marine park was inaccessable. The south side dive sites are less frequently dived; I saw the same behavior over the next few days on the north side at Bloody Bay Wall as well. Perhaps the distraction is what allows the grouper their chance; either way I also had never seen anything take a live lionfish and it was encouraging to see - on several dives. Now if they can only learn to do this in teams as Don suggested! The other video earlier in the thread was also apparently shot on Little Cayman - the grouper have been (mostly) protected there and are abundant.

 

[Allison Finch]

So, instead of spearing the lions, we ought to start carrying something that looks like a badminton racket to push lions into the water column. Sounds like a better option to me!

 

[jbjclj]

Gary,

So you are retired in Cozumel according to the number of contributions to Scuba Board. Congratulations!

Jay

 

[scubadivingsteve]

In November 2011 on Grand Cayman at Northwest Point dive site. The Dm speared a Lion fish couldn't find his knife. He found a ballpien hammer ( who brings a ballpien hammer diving?) hit the fish several times in the head while holding it in the sand, which didn't kill it but stunned it. There were two large groupers were waiting. He slung it off of the spear, the 2 groupers destroyed the Lion fish in about 7 seconds. Leaving the head. The moral of this, give the groupers ballpien hammers and the Lion fish problem is solved. very comical when he was trying to hammer the fish.
Also in November 2011 at Grand
Cayman on Wall street dive site on a Lion fish cull dive. I was the bag man. Got 10 Lion fish, 3 got away, 15 more in holes unreachable. A 5 1/2' Green Moray found us at the end of the dive and begged for the fish. I gave him 1, he took it and hid it in his hole. He came back again and took a 2nd one. Satisified he didn't come back. The Eel acted like a dog wanting a treat, he was not threatning, but definately had a purpose. So that kind of fits in this thread just 16 months ago.

 

[DjDiverDan]

I'd have to logically assume that alive or dead the venom is potent since we are talking about a lion fish, if it's actually even dead has only been so for a few seconds at longest.

So the venom probably has little to do with a fish eating a lion fish. I've not ever witnessed anything showing any marine animal spitting out a lion fish being fed to it during the process of eating it because it got stuck by a spine in the process. Either the spines stick fish when they eat them and it doesn't bother them or they don't get stuck by them, but I think either way it's irrelevant.

I'd think what keeps marine life from eating live lionfish is the threatening posture of them while they are alive, once dead this posture is missing. Kind of like a live rattle snake versus a dead one, a coyote won't try to grab a live one as it has threatening posture that he recognizes, but a dead one he recognizes the posture is different and threat is no longer there any more and will eat it, venom sacks and all. That I believe is why a grouper or a moray will take a "dead" one being fed to it but leave a live one well alone.

Actually, like a lot of nerve toxins, the toxin must get into the bloodstream to be effective. It is easily broken down by digestive enzymes, so, as long as the spines aren't sticking out so as to puncture the fish dining on a Lionfish on the way down, the toxin, which is just a specialized protein, is broken down in digestion. There are quite a few toxins which, though deadly when injected, are perfectly safe when eaten. This is NOT a universal rule, however. Pufferfish toxin is just as deadly when eaten as when injected.

 

[KeithG]

In an attempt to derail this thread back to the original topic...

I claim it is all learned behavior. The lion fish cull is just new to us.

Is anyone surprised that tarpin hunt in their dive lights in Bonaire? No. Been there, done that. It's really annoying now that I think of it...

But, it did not happen ages ago (when i was a wee lad first diving...) We started night diving, the tarpin started learning. New behavior resulted.

So now we have taken on a significant new behavior and the fish are following our lead. Should we be surprised?

 

[mikeycanuk]

One thing I have never seen is groupers acting like pointers (dogs). Oooh! Oooh! Come kill this one!

Same here. On the Brac a few times the friendly grouper pointed at a lionfish and looked at us and seemed to say. " ok your turn, here he is! "


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[macado]

I won't condone or endorse the practice but it does make for some interesting encounters. It looks like that on certain dive sites nurse sharks are getting used to divers who spear lionfish as previously mentioned. My only concern is the fact that the behavior of these animals may get changed so that they expect handouts from divers. Perhaps this only occurs when they smell or see lionfish? I dont know enough to speculate.

One thing is for sure, it can already been seen with some mutton snappers who will already stay with groups for their entire dive looking for a free meal.

I know some people that have already had some scares with overly friendly morays that are looking for handouts.

Here's a quick video I took from last week with an overly friendly nurse shark. I have several other videos like this.

Friendly Nurse Shark encounter - YouTube

 

[Mossman]

Actually, like a lot of nerve toxins, the toxin must get into the bloodstream to be effective. It is easily broken down by digestive enzymes, so, as long as the spines aren't sticking out so as to puncture the fish dining on a Lionfish on the way down, the toxin, which is just a specialized protein, is broken down in digestion. There are quite a few toxins which, though deadly when injected, are perfectly safe when eaten. This is NOT a universal rule, however. Pufferfish toxin is just as deadly when eaten as when injected.

Which raises another interesting issue. Lionfish evolved toxic spines to defend them from predators. Apparently, the same wanna-be predators are able to avoid the spines when eating dead lionfish off a DM's spear, but the live lionfish are still armed and dangerous. What happens when (if) a fish does learn to eat a live lionfish from grazing off pieces of dead ones, goes to take a bite of the live one, and gets spined and killed in the process? That can't be good for the eco system and can only lead to very confused fish.

As for people eating them, while the lionfish spine venom may not be poisonous once cooked (or only exists in the spines, which aren't eaten), they can still harbor ciguatera:
"But another government agency, the Food and Drug Administration, now frowns on the “Eat Lionfish” campaign after tests of nearly 200 lionfish show that more than a quarter exceed federal levels for a toxin that can cause ciguatera, a potentially dangerous fish food poisoning. . . .Of 194 fish tested, 42 percent showed detectable levels of ciguatoxin and 26 percent were above the FDA’s illness threshold of 0.1 parts per billion. "
http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/06/27/12423879-eat-lionfish-sure-but-beware-of-the-nasty-toxins?lite

 

[MMM]

I can assure you, when I took that photo of the nurse nose to nose with me, there were no lion fish anywhere nearby and no one in the group was hunting them. The closest thing I can think is that maybe my red Olympus camera housing looks a bit like lion fish colours.

My only concern is the fact that the behavior of these animals may get changed so that they expect handouts from divers. Perhaps this only occurs when they smell or see lionfish? I dont know enough to speculate.

Friendly Nurse Shark encounter - YouTube