A somewhat sad conversation last night

[boulderjohn]

Yes.This is exactly what has happened. DIR was put out to the world in the late 90's...It was never modified from then on, and the world has changed. GUE DID change, with the times..Their language and context reflects this.

In an earlier post I said that the historical information that led to this comment was very helpful. It was helpful because it showed how very specific phrases that are still being repeated and used in the DIR world had very different specific meanings in their original context, meanings that are lost without the context. To say it was illuminating to me is an understatement, and I am someone who has learned a few things about DIR over the years.

I would think that an essay describing those specifics, an essay that could be repeated on the current DIR-related websites as often as the 20-year essays are, would go a long way to helping people understand.

As I have said before, people who dismiss this as a matter of ancient history forget that these words are still being read and applied today. That means they might as well have been written yesterday.

 

[lowviz]

Sounds to me like you want GUE to be like everybody else ...

[-]Absolutely not.[/-] Hell No! I credit them with keeping up standards. Love to play, but keep hitting the big disconnect -fundies. Catch-22.

Lowviz, I have to confess that I'm completely confused as to what you are trying to say here. Do you mean that, since buoyancy and a stable platform is a core idea, that there should be a whole course where nothing else is done? ...//....

Absolutely yes! And to do this, you guys would have to take an incoming student with his/her LDS' view of dive gear and previous training and warp it/them into something that your agency could first explain then work with. 1 day. Next, lots of in-water time to start properly training breath control and rewiring the reflex-arcs so that this gear can become second nature with practice. 2-3 days. QED.

Question. If every student entering fundies could present in "stable platform", would this hurt either GUE or the student?

 

[Thalassamania]

...
Absolutely yes! And to do this, you guys would have to take an incoming student with his/her LDS' view of dive gear and previous training and warp it/them into something that your agency could first explain then work with. 1 day. Next, lots of in-water time to start properly training breath control and rewiring the reflex-arcs so that this gear can become second nature with practice. 2-3 days. QED.

Question. If every student entering fundies could present in "stable platform", would this hurt either GUE or the student?

I understand what you are saying. John has shown in his recent PADI article that what you are suggesting is quite possible within the confines of a "normal" PADI course and I've seen it done, in many different rigs (and also with no BC of any sort), in longer (40, 60 and 100 hour) formats. I think GUE's (DIR's, WKKP's, GI III's, etc.) attitude(s) has more to do with the fact that the recreational community, more often than not, has a piss poor product, when it comes to buoyancy and trim. But the mermen-in-black missunderstand the issue and are looking (I fear) for an equipment solution (BP/w with trim weights spread hither and yon) to a skill problem. This skill problem, John, et.al., seem to be well on the path to solving at an equipment independent skill level, in a time frame that at first I found hard to credit. The bottom line, at least in my book, is:
1. stop arguing about BP/w vs. Poodle Vest, and
2. get your students up off their knees.

 

[lowviz]

I understand what you are saying. ...//...

Thank you.

 

[Peter Guy]

Lowviz -- the class you want is being offered, just not by GUE but by the other "three letter" agency -- it's called Essentials. The fact that I could take essentials in my own BCD and without much of a change in gear (as I recall, needed a bungied backup) was why I took it instead of Fundies.

 

[TSandM]

Well, I think GUE came to the same conclusion, because that's what the Primer class is aimed at -- a couple of days of nothing more than practicing that stable platform, and then time for the student to go out and cement it before tackling the skills challenges of Fundies. The stable platform is also what most of us work on when we mentor people who are interested in GUE classes -- in fact, I just got off the phone this morning with a fellow with whom I will be working over the next few weeks. I told him I won't teach him kicks or bag shooting, but I will help him figure out his buoyancy and trim and stability.

Having everyone come into Fundies (or any other class!) with solid core skills would only make the classes easier on student and instructor. I don't think anybody sees that as not a desirable thing.

 

[lowviz]

Thanks, Peter. There is hope.

IMHO, "Primer" is still just fundies with a guaranteed fail, depends on the instructor.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Absolutely yes! And to do this, you guys would have to take an incoming student with his/her LDS' view of dive gear and previous training and warp it/them into something that your agency could first explain then work with. 1 day. Next, lots of in-water time to start properly training breath control and rewiring the reflex-arcs so that this gear can become second nature with practice. 2-3 days. QED.

You just described the skills workshop I've been teaching for the past six months ... two days, four dives, wear what you own. It involves more personal coaching than dive instruction ... and it's proving to be very much in demand.

The thing is, GUE isn't really set up to teach this ... their system and goals are very different ... and their resources are limited to focusing on those things. What you're asking for is something that is better done at the "mainstream" level ... preferably by the instructor who initially trained these divers (if they're capable of it). The relevent question is why aren't they doing it already ...

Question. If every student entering fundies could present in "stable platform", would this hurt either GUE or the student?

No ... "stable platform" is the starting point, not the end goal. Once that's achieved, the real benefits of the "team diving" approach become more achievable.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[boulderjohn]

In addition to working to get students to a reasonable level of buoyancy at the OW level, I believe it can easily be accomplished at the recreational level by offering a class that focuses on exactly that, without going to the complete extreme of fundies. I will be offering it soon myself through the shop with which I am associated. (It would have been offered now if I didn't seem to be living with a black cloud with lightning bolts around my head this spring.)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I understand what you are saying. John has shown in his recent PADI article that what you are suggesting is quite possible within the confines of a "normal" PADI course and I've seen it done, in many different rigs (and also with no BC of any sort), in longer (40, 60 and 100 hour) formats. I think GUE's (DIR's, WKKP's, GI III's, etc.) attitude(s) has more to do with the fact that the recreational community, more often than not, has a piss poor product, when it comes to buoyancy and trim. But the mermen-in-black missunderstand the issue and are looking (I fear) for an equipment solution (BP/w with trim weights spread hither and yon) to a skill problem. This skill problem, John, et.al., seem to be well on the path to solving at an equipment independent skill level, in a time frame that at first I found hard to credit. The bottom line, at least in my book, is:
1. stop arguing about BP/w vs. Poodle Vest, and
2. get your students up off their knees.

That's a great start ... but it's still a challenge to develop a stable platform in the limited time allotted for confined water and checkout dives. In order to do as part of initial certification, more dives need to be added to the class.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)