A somewhat sad conversation last night

[Thalassamania]

Sorry if I let my enthusiasm for what you are doing carry beyond what you have actually accomplished. If you were able to reorganize the entry level PADI course (which is what now? 18 hours minimum with 4 dives?), what would you guess you'd need to add to get the point of a "stable platform?" Would the addition of the time and dives required for PPB (again, used not as per the check-sheet, but rather as you saw fit) be sufficient to accomplish the goal were it offered as an integrated program?

 

[endurodog]

From where I have been standing and seeing all of this discussion. In the scuba industry the basic open water classes taught by the big agencies is a great place to start. Then those that want to progress the fundies/GUE stuff is a great next step. DIR still has that stigma with it of elitism but a lot are trying to change that, some still are coming across that way.

I really like the workshop idea stuff Bob said he is doing with his students. People that may not want a whole Fundies thing but to get them moving in a better direction.

Lots of good ideas/discussion in the last few pages. Doesn't that violate SB rules where the ending pages are suppose to be all bashing, haaa.

 

[boulderjohn]

Sorry if I let my enthusiasm for what you are doing carry beyond what you have actually accomplished. If you were able to reorganize the entry level PADI course (which is what now? 18 hours minimum with 4 dives?), what would you guess you'd need to add to get the point of a "stable platform?" Would the addition of the time and dives required for PPB (again, used not as per the check-sheet, but rather as you saw fit) be sufficient to accomplish the goal were it offered as an integrated program?

What I ( and Peter and many others) have accomplished within the PADI program requires neither reorganization nor additional time. In fact, I find it takes less time. All it takes is to focus on performing skills in a horizontal position while buoyant from the very beginning of the first pool session.

As for adding the additional stuff, I really would not like to guess without teaching my intended course first. (Disclosure--I am out of diving for at least 3 more months due to injuries sustained in an accident.)

I am also going to agree with the standard recreational line that it is not necessary for a diver who just wants to dive resort area reefs on a vacation to have that level of skill. I've been on a lot of recreational dives and seen a lot of people having a lot of fun without having anything like that level of mastery.

 

[lowviz]

So, GUE/DIR is taking over... yeaaaeeeeee

Another perspective is that there is a growing appreciation for the skills that you have "known" for years. Skills, not DIR. The problem, as I see it, is that I pay upwards to $4K just to get through Primer and not get beat up in fundies. Money well spent?

Now, if I were a "natural", I could get by in fundies with $2K. I'm not, I have to work for my skills. Right now I'm looking at PSAI. Similar skills, slightly different flavor. But I do need to revisit UTD and Essentials, this may be an option for me. You see, I don't NEED to get anywhere. I love diving and know the feeling when it all comes together. And yeah, if it is too expensive in black, I'll get by with plaid. It all looks the same where I dive.

My wallet, my vote.

 

[boulderjohn]

I am also going to agree with the standard recreational line that it is not necessary for a diver who just wants to dive resort area reefs on a vacation to have that level of skill. I've been on a lot of recreational dives and seen a lot of people having a lot of fun without having anything like that level of mastery.

and this is what I am talking about:

Another perspective is that there is a growing appreciation for the skills that you have "known" for years. Skills, not DIR. The problem, as I see it, is that I pay upwards to $4K just to get through Primer and not get beat up in fundies. Money well spent?

That is the training gap that will need to be filled in the recreational arena in the coming years.

 

[Thalassamania]

What I ( and Peter and many others) have accomplished within the PADI program requires neither reorganization nor additional time. In fact, I find it takes less time. All it takes is to focus on performing skills in a horizontal position while buoyant from the very beginning of the first pool session.

Yes, I understand that, what I am asking is what additional do you think it would take to get to a "stable platform" level?

As for adding the additional stuff, I really would not like to guess without teaching my intended course first. (Disclosure--I am out of diving for at least 3 more months due to injuries sustained in an accident.)

I guess that I will have to wait for your answer, a wait that will be surely more uncomfortable for you than it will be for me ... I wish you a speedy recovery.

I am also going to agree with the standard recreational line that it is not necessary for a diver who just wants to dive resort area reefs on a vacation to have that level of skill. I've been on a lot of recreational dives and seen a lot of people having a lot of fun without having anything like that level of mastery.

There we have different perspectives and will have to agree to disagree ... I've seen people having lots of fun, over the years, doing the most harebrained things imaginable, especially on vacation in resort areas.

 

[GROBIOG]

As a PADI instructor and GUE trained afterwards, I have a difficult time teaching classes now, there is not enough time and money (outside DIR market) to teach someone to dive in the way I feel is best, not to mention safer. And I believe in the holistic approach, otherwise I could simply incorporate what is possible from DIR into my classes and do a much better PADI class, but it would still be half as good teaching from a DIR point of view, IMHO, not optimal. Luckily, I can still work in the industry and not have to teach.

I will however teach my brother soon, he will be PADI certified, but since time and money don't matter, I will sure do it as close to DIR as I can, and I will record everything and see what I can accomplish, we shall see.

John, I have a lot of respect for you, for what I understand, you're taking on the mission the GI3 once started (just don't go on calling people stroke and farm animals though, lol), my statement above is only my personal opinion on MY personal teaching career, it's my own dilema, I do think incorporating DIR style skills into a PADI OW course is a great idea, whatever improves the safety and efficience of planed dives is a + in my book. I have seen so many classes done,

4 hours classroom one night
Less then 4 hours pool session one morning
first 2 dives afternoon
finish remaining 2 dives next day
certified.
class of ~6 people. Get 'em in, get 'em out.

Hopefully more people will fallow your footsteps and improve this now greedy and misinformed industry, I take off my hat to you, sincerely.
A great example of how this industry is right now is any dive shop's wall display of gadgets and gear, more and more manufactures, large and small, invent and re-invent products to aid divers and provide solutions to problems that doesn't exist, products created to solve problems created by lack of skill, this is the bigger picture many fail to see.

Math, is an exact science.

 

[lowviz]

...//...Math, is an exact science.

Applied math isn't.

 

[JamesK]

Argh.... I had so much I wanted to add, but my ADD kicked in. Oh look a squirrel!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Just to be clear, I have never claimed to have achieved a fundies level of buoyancy control in any student in an OW class.

It's the rare student who achieves a fundies level of buoyancy control in a fundies class ... most of us ended up being taught how to learn it, were given a provisional and sent off to spend hours in the water practicing before we achieved it. There's no magic formula ... like anything else, if you want to get good at it you have to practice ... and the more you practice the better you get. What fundies gives you is the knowledge of how to practice in a way that shortens the learning curve. But the truth is that anybody can become great at buoyancy control if they have the will, pay attention to setting up their equipment in a way that it fits and functions as designed, and are diligent at applying what they learned in class ... it just takes time and effort.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)