A somewhat sad conversation last night

[GROBIOG]

It's the rare student who achieves a fundies level of buoyancy control in a fundies class ... most of us ended up being taught how to learn it, were given a provisional and sent off to spend hours in the water practicing before we achieved it. There's no magic formula ... like anything else, if you want to get good at it you have to practice ... and the more you practice the better you get. What fundies gives you is the knowledge of how to practice in a way that shortens the learning curve. But the truth is that anybody can become great at buoyancy control if they have the will, pay attention to setting up their equipment in a way that it fits and functions as designed, and are diligent at applying what they learned in class ... it just takes time and effort.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Hey, I'm rare

 

[BluewaterSail]

It's the rare student who achieves a fundies level of buoyancy control in a fundies class ... most of us ended up being taught how to learn it, were given a provisional and sent off to spend hours in the water practicing before we achieved it. There's no magic formula ... like anything else, if you want to get good at it you have to practice ... and the more you practice the better you get. What fundies gives you is the knowledge of how to practice in a way that shortens the learning curve. But the truth is that anybody can become great at buoyancy control if they have the will, pay attention to setting up their equipment in a way that it fits and functions as designed, and are diligent at applying what they learned in class ... it just takes time and effort.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I can't say what percentage of students achieve fundies level skills with their first contact with fundies, but I know that my experience was as Bob described. I got a provisional (actually twice) had some private instruction too, and worked really hard on my skills. Finally got a Fundies Rec pass 9 months after starting the process.

I applaud what I see here in this thread, which is the seeds of a shift in the industry to bring better basic skills into mainstream instruction. Part of the frustration that I had as I worked like hell on my skills, was the DMs and even some instructors around me thought that I was nuts and striving for something totally unnecessary. If the folks in leadership positions that the average diver sees haven't a clue, its clear why the average diver is also clueless on the advantages of being able to put yourself where you want to in the water column and stay there.

And btw, this situation leads to people feeling that one is elitest, if you clearly believe that a level of skill in some area should be higher than they can demonstrate. Which brings us around to where this thread began.

 

[lowviz]

...//...I applaud what I see here in this thread, which is the seeds of a shift in the industry to bring better basic skills into mainstream instruction. Part of the frustration that I had as I worked like hell on my skills, was the DMs and even some instructors around me thought that I was nuts and striving for something totally unnecessary. ...//...And btw, this situation leads to people feeling that one is elitest, ...//... Which brings us around to where this thread began.

I see the current state of affairs as being a tipping point. Either GUE adds an entry level course that doesn't require mentoring, or the other agencies become GUE feeder schools in addition to their primary agendas.

 

[Fish-R-Man]

I think that Bob's idea of a workshop to teach more advanced skills without the need to go the DIR/GUE route to be a great opportunity for recreational divers to improve on their overall diving ability. Nothing like that is offered from the LDS where I live. I think that part of the problem stems from the fact that "technical" gear is just not found in most dive shops. The gear that is available for rent is pretty standard entry level equipment. A couple shops I found over the years would rent higher end gear to try, but it was still pretty much standard fair. That limits a diver from trying different gear configurations before they decide what gear works best for them or for allowing instructors to show the positive or negative side of each piece of chosen gear.

I think that the dive industry should take a lesson from the ski industry. Just about any decent ski shop has high end rental skis and boots. This gives the skier a chance to try different equipment before they shell out big bucks to make a purchase. Any choice's that would then be made would stem from personal usage as opposed to color, advertising, peer pressure, etc. I know that if I am in the market for new ski equipment, I may ski on a dozen different brands and styles of skis before I decide to make a purchase, or I may just decide that the newer models don’t really have an advantage over what I am currently using. I really wish I had this ability with dive gear. If the access to gear, to rent or try, that is required by DIR was available to the average recreational diver, I feel that there would be significantly more rec divers out there using different gear configurations than they do currently. That along with an advanced skills work shop like Bob is offering could really makea difference in the skill level for a number of non-DIR divers.

 

[BluewaterSail]

I see the current state of affairs as being a tipping point. Either GUE adds an entry level course that doesn't require mentoring, or the other agencies become GUE feeder schools in addition to their primary agendas.

Primer doesn't require mentoring, and being non-certification, can't be failed.

But if people aren't aware of the benefits of such skills, they won't search it out. GUE is a very small organization, that the average Joe diver never even heard of. And for most people, to take Primer requires travel. Time and money. Look at their website. There are only 20 active GUE instructors in the US, and none in my country of residence. GUE can't take the place of the mainstream agencies. Wouldn't it be nice if folks could get such a semimar at their LDS from mainstream instructors? And for starters, to have their OW instructor get them off their knees for skills drills?

That's whats so exciting about what Bob and some others are talking about. Not that it wouldn't be nice for GUE instructors to have more students, but changing the mainstream attitudes would affect alot more people. And that level of awareness would probably result in GUE getting more interest too.

 

[gypsyjim]

Hey, I'm rare

That makes me more, er, the opposite. Did Primer the Fundies, and got a lot of new skills and wonderful, useful knowledge, but only now a long passed Provisional.

Got what I really wanted tho, the new skills which I continue to develop.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I think that Bob's idea of a workshop to teach more advanced skills without the need to go the DIR/GUE route to be a great opportunity for recreational divers to improve on their overall diving ability. Nothing like that is offered from the LDS where I live. I think that part of the problem stems from the fact that "technical" gear is just not found in most dive shops. The gear that is available for rent is pretty standard entry level equipment. A couple shops I found over the years would rent higher end gear to try, but it was still pretty much standard fair. That limits a diver from trying different gear configurations before they decide what gear works best for them or for allowing instructors to show the positive or negative side of each piece of chosen gear.

I think that the dive industry should take a lesson from the ski industry. Just about any decent ski shop has high end rental skis and boots. This gives the skier a chance to try different equipment before they shell out big bucks to make a purchase. Any choice's that would then be made would stem from personal usage as opposed to color, advertising, peer pressure, etc. I know that if I am in the market for new ski equipment, I may ski on a dozen different brands and styles of skis before I decide to make a purchase, or I may just decide that the newer models don’t really have an advantage over what I am currently using. I really wish I had this ability with dive gear. If the access to gear, to rent or try, that is required by DIR was available to the average recreational diver, I feel that there would be significantly more rec divers out there using different gear configurations than they do currently. That along with an advanced skills work shop like Bob is offering could really makea difference in the skill level for a number of non-DIR divers.

So let me explain what I'm doing, because I wouldn't classify it as advanced skills ... but I do think it's a neat idea.

The workshop I'm offering is primarily, although not exclusively, for the newly-certified diver ... the people I've worked with so far have all been diving a few times, and came to the realization that they're not comfortable with what they learned in OW. These workshops are all either one-on-one or a maximum of two students. We start out by going through their equipment ... head to toe ... I want to see how everything fits, primarily ... but also how you're putting it all together to function underwater. I make recommendations or adjustments based on what I see to get the equipment as functional in the water as possible ... we work with what you bring to class, although I will explain to the student if I think something they're using is inhibiting their ability to dive the way they'd like to. We discuss what difficulties brought the student to me, and set a plan for the first dive based on what the student tells me. This usually targets buoyancy control ... so we do the entire dive to a max depth of 20 feet, where we can work on ascents, descents and hovering. Before we go out, I'll do a "rough" weight check, using the same method your OW instructor probably used ... this is just to assure that you're not grossly overweighted ... we'll do a more precise weight check at the end of the dive, in eight feet of water with just your reserve supply of air. The whole dive is targeted toward getting the student to descend comfortably without touching bottom, hover without motion, and ascend while being able to hold stops at will. We make several ascents and descents on this dive ... both to practice and to talk about making adjustments based on what I see. Throughout, there's a huge emphasis on breathing ... let's not forget that we all take two BCD's down with us ... the internal one's just as important to pay attention to as the external one. Depending on the student, this first dive can take up to 90 minutes of in-water time. At the end of the dive, we'll make any equipment adjustments I think are needed to get your gear squared away.

The other dives will focus on solidifying other skills ... depending on the diver. Those usually involve working on distributing weights to achieve better trim control, learning new propulsion techniques, working on managing a drysuit bubble, solidifying air sharing skills, making maskless ascents, or whatever else the student feels they'd like to learn. This is usually where I see a lot of shifting behavior that tells me a student's confidence in their basic skills is starting to come together. Little things that probably should've been addressed in their OW class ... like letting go of the BCD inflator or managing a direction change without hand-waving. Once we reach that point, then we can start working on managing buoyancy while task-loading ... and the fun begins all over again.

None of this stuff is directly related to GUE's system ... but all of it better prepares someone who later decides GUE/UTD is a good route for them. Many of my students later decide to take that route ... the majority don't. But the workshop is not really designed to be a feeder into DIR ... it's designed to be a "bridge" between OW and AOW that helps students solidify the skills they were introduced to in OW class before moving on to new skills and environments. I teach a pretty challenging AOW class ... one that puts some meat into the "advanced" part of that title ... and this workshop is designed to help people better prepare for it.

I first taught this workshop in December ... six months ago. I'll be teaching it for the ninth time starting in about three hours. I'm an independent instructor. I don't advertise classes ... my students seek me out. And it's that popular. Imagine if a dive shop offered something like this to all the people who walk through their doors. I think there's a vast market opportunity here that the agencies try to tap by pushing people directly from OW to AOW ... but that misses the point of having people solidify basic skills before introducing them to more challenging environments that often make them even more uncomfortable than they already are ... and result in many coming out of AOW feeling like they didn't learn anything.

I firmly believe that lack of comfort contributes heavily to the high dropout rate among divers ... as one of my early instructor/mentors put it, "we teach them just enough to scare the crap out of themselves". I'm finding that if you offer people a "bridge" class that gets them past that part, they'll happily take it ... at this point, I can't keep up with demand ... and this for a class that's not on any agency's agenda and offers no c-card.

I think the motivation is very similar to that which drives people toward Fundies ... they're not interested in the agency, or the politics, or even another c-card ... they just want to be able to dive comfortably. This class puts them there ... not with anything like "advanced" skills ... but simply by helping them learn to better use the tools they were introduced to in OW ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[lowviz]

Primer doesn't require mentoring, and being non-certification, can't be failed. ...//...

True, and if my information is any good, it is still a lot like taking fundies twice. Bob, boulderjohn, Thalassamania, and others are cause for great encouragement.

You point out just how resource-limited GUE really is. Being so, I would imagine that GUE targets the "better" students for a lot of reasons.

 

[boulderjohn]

I see the current state of affairs as being a tipping point. Either GUE adds an entry level course that doesn't require mentoring, or the other agencies become GUE feeder schools in addition to their primary agendas.

B GUE is a very small organization, that the average Joe diver never even heard of. And for most people, to take Primer requires travel. Time and money. Look at their website. There are only 20 active GUE instructors in the US, and none in my country of residence. GUE can't take the place of the mainstream agencies. Wouldn't it be nice if folks could get such a semimar at their LDS from mainstream instructors? And for starters, to have their OW instructor get them off their knees for skills drills?

You point out just how resource-limited GUE really is. Being so, I would imagine that GUE targets the "better" students for a lot of reasons.

People speak as if GUE is the only place you can learn these skills. Remember that fundies was born from the need to have students better prepared for the technical training needed for cave work. Almost all technical diving agencies have a similar program. I am a TDI instructor, and a student who takes Intro to Tech from me will get a very similar course.

The problem is that there is no course in most recreational agencies that is the recreational equivalent. It is for that reason that as a PADI instructor, I created a workshop at that level. The word workshop is important. Like primer, there is no passing or failing. There is instead an expectation that skills will be well taught with the goal of having the students learn enough to be able to practice on their own. They may also schedule additional sessions to work on skills. Let's face it, expecting students to learn how to back kick effectively in a single course is asking a lot.

I think that Bob's idea of a workshop to teach more advanced skills without the need to go the DIR/GUE route to be a great opportunity for recreational divers to improve on their overall diving ability. Nothing like that is offered from the LDS where I live. I think that part of the problem stems from the fact that "technical" gear is just not found in most dive shops. The gear that is available for rent is pretty standard entry level equipment.

It's not just gear, and that's where the analogy to ski shops breaks down. The main difference is not the gear--it is how the gear is used. Most LDSs by far do not have anyone on staff with anything like the training this takes. That is the local problem with my injuries. The LDS through which I was to offer the class has no one else who can teach it.

 

[Thalassamania]

A few thoughts occur to me.

The major problem with the sorts of skills that are taught in Fundies (as a placeholder name) being taught in mainstream programs is that from what I have seen there are few mainstream instructors like John (representing PADI) and Bob (representing NAUI) that even perform the skills, not to mention teach them. Keep in mind that the average instructor only lasts two to three years.

If the average instructor hasn't mastered the skills, can't conceivably teach the skills, few if any students will know that the skills are out there to be learned, not to mention have any idea of where and with whom they might be worked on.

These skills are equipment independent, (which the exception of helicopter turns and back kicks which can be damnably hard in the wrong fins). I agree that it would be nice if LDSs were to rent "tech gear" but I don't think that the demand is there. If it were, then they would. Shops rent one of two types of gear, either the cheapest that they can get away with or the best that they have that they want to sell. There are lots of rather obvious reasons as to why they do this and "tech gear" rarely fits into either category, though you'd think that LDSs would cotton to the concept that with a BP/w one size fits all and the need for a bunch of different sized BCDs goes away.