A somewhat sad conversation last night

[danvolker]

Bob,

there are no personal attacks in what I wrote. Unless you consider simply disagreeing with you a personal attack. My ex thought that as well and it was a device she used to end all discussion. As you say, I think you are better than that.

In reading GI3's description of a stroke which you so graciously provided (thanks!), he never says "unsafe". He mostly describes people that don't agree with his methodology of diving. Mind you, I have never met anyone who thought that diving was an "every man for himself" sport so I really can't relate to all of it. But look at how he defines an "obvious stroke" with "their choice of gear and gear configuration". That really has nothing to do with safety. Again, I think it's great that DIR is evolving and that Rule #1 has evolved along with it. But in reality, the whole idea of what constitutes a stroke is at the heart of the issue our dear TSandM has started this discussion about.

As for DIR divers moving on, there are even more non-DIR divers who have moved on from ScubaBoard. I can't force any group to use us... I can only provide the platform and try to keep it friendly. When things don't work, like the practitioner's forum, it's time to rethink it. Does that make me or ScubaBoard anti-DIR? BTW, it's my opinion that I have succeeded in making ScubaBoard inclusive more than any other forum out there. The figures seem to support that oh-so-biased opinion.

As for GI3 being a "chronic sociopath", I completely disagree. He was passionate about diving and was convinced that there was really only one way to Do It Right. He has caused a lasting problem for the DIR community and offshoots with his vitriolic tirades and that's unfortunate. However, he was the creator of the DIR and Stroke concepts, so it's hard to look at the movement and the reactions to the movement without fully addressing his legacy. Nevertheless, I still admire his passion!

I think the Stroke term came about due to a few specific occurences.....One was Bill Renaker doing a magazine and seminar series on "Every man for himself based Diving"....this made George livid....and helped form much of the description of the stroke....and another was the group of divers that Sheck Exily had started diving with right near the end, and who had him interested in the depth record dives that killed him...George blamed Sheck's death on the absolute stupidity of these new friends of Sheck, and the danger a PEER GROUP like this can have on a diver that would otherwise have chosen more reasonable goals. Sheck had been a very close friend and good dive buddy of George's...
These were both defining issues for George, and if you read through the description Bob just re-posted, you should be able to see issues behind the words, and see Sheck's new friends near time of death, and Renaker, as evident in the emotions of the Stroke defintion.

And this is why I am always saying you need to know the history before you think you can understand why George posted the way he did.
Each of us is capable of going on a rampage, if a close friend of ours was killed, stupidly, and we see more of the same coming.
When instructor DEreck McKnulty managed to allow his tech student Jane Orenstein to die by O2 tox..she being the girlfriend of a good friend of mine, and I had to find her and bring her body up from near the Rb Johnson .... the negligence I saw from Mcnulty made me want to beat him to a pulp. If I had gotten on to the boat he was on, I definitely would have. I had to settle for a huge thread on rec.scuba called "Murder on the IANTD Express".
The point being, words are not always just words...sometimes they are shorthand for much more complex histories. Think of this when you hear STROKE....as a point of origin.... And today, it has lost the bitterness, and become more of a joke title to rib someone with, in no way meaning to hurt feelings.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob,

there are no personal attacks in what I wrote. Unless you consider simply disagreeing with you a personal attack. My ex thought that as well and it was a device she used to end all discussion. It ultimately ended our marriage. As you say, I think you are better than that.

Insinuations of being political, of "spinning". or being in denial aren't personal attacks? Perhaps not in your world, Pete. Whenever you comment on someone's assumed motives, rather than the substance of what they said, you are attacking the person rather than the message. That is what I read into your comments. It's possible, you know, to disagree with someone respectfully.

In reading GI3's description of a stroke which you so graciously provided (thanks!), he never says "unsafe". He mostly describes people that don't agree with his methodology of diving. Mind you, I have never met anyone who thought that diving was an "every man for himself" sport so I really can't relate to all of it. But look at how he defines an "obvious stroke" with "their choice of gear and gear configuration". That really has nothing to do with safety. Again, I think it's great that DIR is evolving and that Rule #1 has evolved along with it. But in reality, the whole idea of what constitutes a stroke is at the heart of the issue our dear TSandM has started this discussion about.

Well, first off, I don't think that is at all what TSandM started this discussion about. But I won't presume to speak for her ... she does an excellent job of speaking for herself.

However, now that you've posted your interpretation of George's comments, I'll post mine ... because I think he does a pretty thorough job of describing "unsafe".

Very simply put, a "stroke" is somebody you don't want to dive with. It is somebody who will cause you problems, or not be any use to you if you have problems. Usually, this is a reflection of the attitude of a stroke, but that can be inherent in the personality of the individual, or others can teach it.

Here he identifies what makes someone an unsafe diver ... attitude. Nothing in this paragraph says a thing about DIR.

For instance, if somebody is taught that diving is an "every man for himself" sport, that you "can't help somebody deep," that "my gas is my gas," or "know when to leave your buddy," then that is somebody you do not want to be in the water with. Some people are natural strokes, but all too many are created. Unfortunately, people believe best what they hear first, and given the low-level food chain structure of dive instruction, most strokes are man-made, and are then hard to fix.

Here he is identifying some concepts that were commonly accepted by old-school divers ... many still are. I personally know people who dive by these principles ... they are euphamistically known as "same ocean dive buddies".

Obvious strokes are not so bad - you can see them and you know to avoid them. Frequently they will give it away with their choice of gear and gear configuration. If you see something that is a complete mess, makes no sense, is less than optimal, or is designed to accommodate some phobia while ignoring all else, you are dealing with a stroke.

Here he mentions gear ... but he does not specify what kind of gear he's referring to. People make all kinds of fundamentally unsafe choices ... choosing cylinders that are too small for the dive they're attempting ... dangling backups that can get trapped or snagged and broken ... choosing "convenience" options like an inline safe second without practicing how to use it in an emergency ... putting cutting devices in places where they can be hard to reach when needed ... and any number of other choices that have nothing to do with DIR configurations. I see it a lot with students who come to me for workshops ... which is why we spend a part of our first day going through their equipment. Choosing safe and appropriate equipment is every bit as necessary for the traditional, recreational diver as it is for someone training for cave diving ... and I've seen some really wonky setups that seemed like a good idea to the inexperienced diver who "thought it through" until I asked him what he would do in a situation where he really had to rely on deploying and using that gear in a stressful situation.

If the stroke is pontificating about how he can "handle" deep air diving, or obsessing about depth, or appears to be trying to compensate for internal fears, this is an obvious stroke and you merely avoid them.

Now Pete ... we've had a few of these come through ScubaBoard over the years ... and you are as bothered by them as I am. Inevitably they get shown the door ... by members of your staff who have nothing to do with DIR. If you want to avoid them on the Internet, why wouldn't you want to avoid them in the water?

The really insidious strokes are those who pretend to be squared away, but are in this game for all the wrong reasons. Usually they wish to prove something to themselves or others, or to overcome some internal fears. These tend to try to do things that they are not ready to do, and when something goes wrong, they flee for their lives.

I've run into a few of these ... they scare me ... or if it turns out they're otherwise nice people, they worry me. Either way, I won't dive with them. Accidents with people like this are almost inevitable. But again it boils down to attitude. I learned this concept from the YMCA instructor who taught my first three scuba diving classes. His way of saying it was "leave your ego on the beach, it will only get you in trouble underwater". I can assure you he wasn't thinking DIR ... in fact, I doubt he'd ever even heard the term.

Diving is not an intuitive thing. It is not a natural thing. Natural reactions of human beings on dry land do not work underwater. To be a good diver, you have to control your natural responses, and know that they can only hurt you, not help you. A stroke cannot do that. A stroke is driven by fear, ego, bull**** and self-concern.

Again, I see nothing specific to DIR here ... it seems common sense. People tend to push their limits ... often without testing themselves to see whether or not they're ready to do so. The most common and obvious way they do this is by chasing depth ... taking an AOW class way too soon simply so they can get on the boat that's gonna take them to some wreck or some other "bucket list" dive site. These are the ones we read about in the Incidents and Accidents forum when something doesn't go just exactly right and they suddenly realize they don't have a clue what to do about it. Panic is a natural reaction to being faced with a problem you don't know how to solve. On land, it's an instinct that's meant to keep us alive ... but underwater that instinct can kill us quick. A safe diver is one who recognizes this and doesn't intentionally put themselves in a place to have to deal with a problem they don't know how to resolve.

As for DIR divers moving on, there are even more non-DIR divers who have moved on from ScubaBoard. I can't force any group to use us... I can only provide the platform and try to keep it friendly. When things don't work, like the practitioner's forum, it's time to rethink it. Does that make me or ScubaBoard anti-DIR? BTW, it's my opinion that I have succeeded in making ScubaBoard inclusive more than any other forum out there. The figures seem to support that oh-so-biased opinion.

I didn't say you're anti-DIR, Pete ... I said the board isn't as DIR friendly as you claim it to be. It became impossible to have a DIR-based conversation in the DIR forum because ... despite the rules that you created for that forum ... the bashers were violating them regularly with impunity. People who want to have those conversations aren't going to fight for their "right" to do so ... they're gonna go somewhere else where they don't have to fight. For the DIR divers, there are alternatives where they can go join a forum of like-minded people and have those conversations without all the static that they get on ScubaBoard.

As for GI3 being a "chronic sociopath", I completely disagree. He was passionate about diving and was convinced that there was really only one way to Do It Right. He has caused a lasting problem for the DIR community and offshoots with his vitriolic tirades and that's unfortunate. However, he was the creator of the DIR and Stroke concepts, so it's hard to look at the movement and the reactions to the movement without fully addressing his legacy. Nevertheless, I still admire his passion!

When I worked for Fifth Dimension, I had the opportunity to meet George in person. Like a lot of people, in real life he's nothing like the guy you read about on the Internet. But it's the Internet persona who created the stereotype ... and in the long run left everybody else with a nasty reputation to live down. On the other hand, there were a bunch of other folks on those old boards who were just as nasty as George ... and nobody seems to even remember their names anymore. Why is that, I wonder ... perhaps because they used fake names like Jammer and Popeye, and only a handful of people knew who they really were. At least George was honest enough to let you know who he was ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[boulderjohn]

I think the Stroke term came about due to a few specific occurences.....

That was a very informative post, and it adds a lot of perspective to the one that followed.

 

[JamesK]

Way to many people who have no clue about where GI3 was coming from try to play and twist his words in to what they want to believe he was speaking about. Something many fail to realize is that he was not speaking about the recreational diver. Dan already touched on this above, but for some reason people still want to think differently. The every man for himself attitude was VERY prevalent in cave diving even in to this century. That attitude almost killed me in a cave in Mexico. It was not my every man for himself attitude, but someone else diving with us. I happen to like Rennaker. I think he is a great guy. In the early part of this century I was a fixture almost every other weekend at his shop. However, I did not agree with his past style of diving. That is the type of thing that GI3 was talking about that many simply can not understand.

DIR was not designed for the guy and gal tootling along the reef at 30 feet. It was for the guys like GI3 doing the deep extended penetration dives. They came up with a system that flat out freggin works. I don't know anyone who can argue against that. Granted, this holistic approach to diving transfers very well over to the vacation reef diver, but it was not designed for it.

When I first started cave diving and heard about this GI3 guy I thought he had to be the biggest ass in the world. At the time, I only knew what I didn't know. In other words, I didn't know jack. As I read more about it, met the people doing the dives, and learned from them, I started to understand. Was I brainwashed, did I drink the Kool-Aid? Nope. They offered it, but it was purple, and I prefer the green. The point I am trying to make is don't dismiss a valid way of doing things because someone is acting like a horses hind end. Further, learn the why's and how's behind the madness before you close your mind to it.

Overall, dive safe and dive often. Enjoy what you do! We are all in it for the fun of it, because you sure as **** can't get rich doing it!

 

[abnfrog]

this is a very thought provoking thread . i do belive there are strokes out there , getting tickets of teaching when its just about the instructor hat . Cutting corners on courses , doing dives they are not quailifed to do. etc but we have to deal with them the way we have to . i just quit a club i taught for for over 17 years (along with another instructor of the same club ) because of saftey infractions ,3 incidents of divers seeking medical aid (hospital) and then a death .And for 2 years trying to change there attitudes . i think i know why people become passionate over "the right way to do things " but alas it really only changes when we shine the light of day on these people. So im all for calling them out ...............

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I went through my "calling out" phase and found it to be counterproductive ... people stop listening when emotions turn negative, and although there will be those who will understand where you're coming from, it won't be the people who most need to comprehend the point you're trying to make. And all you'll really do is develop a reputation as a blowhard.

Maybe it works better in the tech world, where people who do that kind of diving tend to be more self-critical ... but at a recreational level, I've found that focusing on a constructive message tends to get better results. In other words, rather than telling someone what's wrong with the things you don't agree with, tell them what's right with the things you do. Give people some credit for being intelligent enough to make up their own mind, and don't worry about the total screwups who aren't going to listen to you no matter what you say ... sometimes Darwin's the only one those people are going to listen to anyway.

As to the point of this thread ... it gets really tiring after a while reading all the misinformation that gets posted. Makes for good, lively internet discussion ... but most of it bears little resemblance to the experiences I've had over the years. Like I said, perhaps it's a regional thing ... but it does make me glad that in the area I live in, folks just mostly want to get along and go diving.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[JamesK]

I went through my "calling out" phase and found it to be counterproductive ... people stop listening when emotions turn negative, and although there will be those who will understand where you're coming from, it won't be the people who most need to comprehend the point you're trying to make. And all you'll really do is develop a reputation as a blowhard.

Maybe it works better in the tech world, where people who do that kind of diving tend to be more self-critical ... but at a recreational level, I've found that focusing on a constructive message tends to get better results. In other words, rather than telling someone what's wrong with the things you don't agree with, tell them what's right with the things you do. Give people some credit for being intelligent enough to make up their own mind, and don't worry about the total screwups who aren't going to listen to you no matter what you say ... sometimes Darwin's the only one those people are going to listen to anyway.

As to the point of this thread ... it gets really tiring after a while reading all the misinformation that gets posted. Makes for good, lively internet discussion ... but most of it bears little resemblance to the experiences I've had over the years. Like I said, perhaps it's a regional thing ... but it does make me glad that in the area I live in, folks just mostly want to get along and go diving.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob,

I would have to agree with your findings. I am one of the only BP/W divers down here. Their are two others that I know of, and one of them has gone. I am a fixture at the LDS here, so pretty much every one knows me. The folks at the LDS know that I don't dive with the gear they sell, and so does everyone else. I do not steer anyone away from what the LDS is selling so they let me stay. I am actually one of their best salesman. OK, I am losing track here. I have found that when people ask me my opinions on why I dive with what I do, that they are much more receptive when I simply explain why I use my gear, and not why it is IMO better then theirs. I only comment on their gear if I see something that is unsafe IMO, or if they ask for my opinion on it. It seems to be a much more pleasant conversation that way, and they do not instantly shut themselves down to my input.

 

[danvolker]

Back to the whole "DIR people said mean things that hurt my feelings" issue.....All the original DIR information and discussion was about DIR for Cave or very deep ocean. It was for the real adventurer. The gear, the attitudes, the concerns, this was all for extremely challenging dive conditions.
The mainstays people here have heard of, like Rule # One and others, were all for Cave and tech divers.
When I first started posting to rec.scuba, explaining how DIR could help recreational divers that desired to go into tech or much more advanced diving, the emphasis was not on the tirades used on the Cavers or Tech lists, I usually replaced words like Stroke with "unsafe divers" , and spent considerable time explaining the picture in detail, and trying to keep things "nice".... I was not a complete "angel" in those days, but it was not my intention to hurt feelings...it was to help divers enjoy the adventures they wanted, better and more safely.

For all the people here that hate George, he did not put all the thousands of hours of DIR discussions and videos and demos out for profit...he did this because he believed it was the right thing to do. He created a system that could help thousand of divers connected by the internet, for free.

They could get as much or as little as they wanted. He created a system that spread, and helped a lot of people become much safer divers, and he did this for free....

So all of this hatred is perhaps a little misplaced. If YOU were there in the late 90's, all his posts would have made more sense than they do now. If you happened to be a picture of what he was describing, in a negative way, then sure, you will continue to hate him.
However, his real motivation was getting thousands of divers to be safer, and to enjoy bigger adventures. This was my motivation as well. It still is.

 

[GROBIOG]

I have to agree with Dan.
I wasn't around that time of George, but I read the ENTIRE archive of posts by GI3, his motivation is clear, and it amazes me that a guy with no personal gains behind him took such a huge fight for years, look how hated the guy is, and to think he did it for the safety improvement only, spread awareness for everyone, I was a big stroke for a long time, do I hate George? no, I am grateful to him, I would like to shake his hand and thank him.

Here is something I thought was very interesting, Tom Mount was constantly on the wrong end of George's ideas, his comments on Tom was just brutal, but one day, someone new to the list, and interested in tech diving was looking for an instructor and asked the list, not George, the guy simply asked for a good instructor, so he could take tech classes from, George, without being asked directly, jumped in and without resitation, recommended Tom Mount to the guy to take classes from, George aknowledged Tom was a good instructor and diver, just didn't agree with some of the things he was doing, like deep air.
To be fair, that was pre-GUE.

How many today live in that time battle without the understanding of what was taking place, Dan's last few posts is a great eye opener for a lot of people.
We can all call this evolution, regardless of how it evolved, all I can say is THANK YOU George, today I can take a tech class from many agencies and have a pretty good chance of it being safer and with better procedures because of him.

 

[TSandM]

Goodness gracious, this took off while I was gone . . .

Just got back from three days in North Florida. I dove with GUE folks and with non-GUE folks, some of whom dive GUE-style and some don't. I watched a GUE instructor have no problems at all doing a dive with guy in sidemount (admittedly, they were on different teams, but we were all in the cave together). It was lovely that all of us who were GUE folks didn't have to discuss any gear differences or procedure differences. It just makes life a little easier.

The thread was started to say that it was sad that my new acquaintance had gotten the impression from on-line forums that DIR/GUE divers were jerks, when the vast majority of us aren't. And to publicize this particular young man's decision, after actually MEETING some GUE divers, that, in fact, we were pretty cool folks to hang out with.

I think, the world around, that would mostly be found to be true -- as it is that most OTHER divers are pretty cool people to hang out with, too. In fact, I've found divers in general to be mostly very nice people, and just because you're diving a backplate and Jet fins does not change that. And not all DIR divers are all in black: