A somewhat sad conversation last night

[danvolker]

When other organizations say that do chicken right, dive rite, or are the way the world learns to dive, everyone thinks of those phrases as mere slogans and pays little attention. If, on the other hand, people from KFC were to go into Chick Fil-A restaurants and tell all the customers that Chick Fil-A was doing chicken wrong, warning them that they really needed to go to KFC so that they could get their chicken done right and avoid potential serious consequences, some people would stop seeing it as a mere slogan and would start to get irritated. I mentioned earlier the story of the DIR diver who was applying for a job at a major tech-oriented dive shop and who made sure the owner knew that the Dive Rite gear he was selling was not safe, implying that it should be called Dive Wrong instead. When that sort of thing happens, people stop seeing DIR as a mere slogan and start to get irritated.

Earlier in the thread Dan said that one of the virtues of DIR is that its proponents are altruistically motivated to help people learn to dive correctly. Done without proper tact, it can be perceived as neither altruism nor a virtue.

And this is something many of us are working hard on....to be tactful enough so that the entire exchange is very positive...Even the guy in the video I shot the other day, was treated politely....He is not named in the video, and I can't imagine anyone but him or his buddy recognizing him in the video, so I see no pain and suffering for him. And now he may get JDC to help him be better.... If I had been a jerk to him, he would have told me to screw off, and would not likely have changed anything.

 

[BVickery]

Why is it that we as a people needed to segment ourselves down to a very small group?

I'm just a diver, nothing more, nothing less. My training/skills limit me to open water, but I am still a diver. If you want to help me improve my skills to be a better diver, then I am all for it, welcome it, relish it, crave it. But do so in a way that is more along lines of equals or the way of a mentor would teach a person in his charge.

I don't care if your PADI, NAUI, GUE, UTD, CMAS, BSAC, YMCA, or any other agency. The only things I care about that your a competent and safe diver first and foremost. If you come off a snob/elitest/buttwad I will not dive with you.

 

[gypsyjim]

I am not a "DIR Diver".
I did not "pass" my Fundies, not even close.
I was interested in learning more about this sport we all love so much, and saw a level of control under water in a group of divers I got to know, that was far above the control of even many instructors I have dived with.
I wanted some of that added control and skill for myself.
I played in the water with my friends, took a couple classes with a GUE instructor, and began adapting my gear choices and techniques as I began to see their value to me.
I spent a week doing the Fundies class, and adapted even more. As I said, I didn't pass, but got most of what I was there for, which was more control and some new skills and toys to play with.

I am still not a DIR diver, but at this point there is very little of my gear choice that would not fit into that mold. I still dive with anyone I meet who comes across as a safe diver, and unless someone asks me about the wing, plate long hose, bungied reg, ect, I just dive with them as another diver.


As for the DIR/Anti DIR warfare, it sure seems to me that this whole warfare thing has become less and less harsh than when I first wandered into SB some 5 or so years ago. Seemed to be a lot worse then, but maybe I am just not noticing it as much as I did at first.

 

[Hetland]

I have told people with whom I was discussing cave diving together that I am GUE-trained, because it's a shorthand way of conveying what set of protocols I was taught and use. (One of the nice things about the system, in my view )

In that context I totally agree, and I almost put that into my post.

 

[nimoh]

Why is it that we as a people needed to segment ourselves down to a very small group?

I'm just a diver, nothing more, nothing less. My training/skills limit me to open water, but I am still a diver. If you want to help me improve my skills to be a better diver, then I am all for it, welcome it, relish it, crave it. But do so in a way that is more along lines of equals or the way of a mentor would teach a person in his charge.

I don't care if your PADI, NAUI, GUE, UTD, CMAS, BSAC, YMCA, or any other agency. The only things I care about that your a competent and safe diver first and foremost. If you come off a snob/elitest/buttwad I will not dive with you.

I care what agency you trained with, since if it is the same as mine, then I know that we are trained using similar procedures including hand signals, if it is a different agency, then we will have a little longer conversation during the predive check, but neither would stop me from diving with you.

 

[mathauck0814]

I care what agency you trained with, since if it is the same as mine, then I know that we are trained using similar procedures including hand signals, if it is a different agency, then we will have a little longer conversation during the predive check, but neither would stop me from diving with you.

I see this as less of a problem in real life. Unless you don't have a regular buddy/team that you dive with [mostly] all of the time, I can't see it mattering a whole lot. For 99% of my diving, this is a discussion of who else is on the boat, not who else I'm working with under water.

 

[BVickery]

I care what agency you trained with, since if it is the same as mine, then I know that we are trained using similar procedures including hand signals, if it is a different agency, then we will have a little longer conversation during the predive check, but neither would stop me from diving with you.

That falls under 'is this person a safe/competent diver'.

 

[nimoh]

I see this as less of a problem in real life. Unless you don't have a regular buddy/team that you dive with [mostly] all of the time, I can't see it mattering a whole lot. For 99% of my diving, this is a discussion of who else is on the boat, not who else I'm working with under water.

I do both, I have been on many dives while travelling where I was paired up with someone I didn't know, and I will usually start with asking what level of training they have and what organization. I see it as just polite conversation mostly, but knowing what organization tells me a lot about how they will do things in the water. I of course also have a lot of friends that I dive with locally, and travel with from time to time.


I don't recall ever standing up on a boat and announcing that I am a DIR Diver, but then again, I am not one of the arrogant DIR Divers that people seem to be complaining about. I have never met one of these divers yet, or perhaps I did and they let me go without a lecture since I dive a long hose


My point is that I don't see any reason to avoid identifying with an organization for fear it might offend someone that is not affiliated with it. When asked about my diving level, I will normally respond with "PADI Divemaster", rather than just "Divemaster", and I don't view that as saying the NAUI equivalent isn't as good.

 

[JamesK]

How many of you have a dive sticker anywhere on anything you own? How many of you have a piece of clothing that is dive related in anyway or shows some exotic place you have dove at? I know I do.

You do it because you are proud to be a diver right? Well some folks are proud to be a wreck diver, or a dive photographer, or a deep diver, or heaven forbid a DIR diver. So complaining about putting someone in a group, ain't gonna fly IMO. We all have already grouped are self to be a small percentage of the population when we labeled ourselves as divers. Now I am going to get off work, change out of this uniform, through on my "Cave Adventurers" shirt, and head to the LDS here where they just called me and let me know my new camera just came in. Have a great dive!

 

[boulderjohn]

And this is something many of us are working hard on....to be tactful enough so that the entire exchange is very positive..

I fully agree that there has been an obvious and concerted effort to make DIR less confrontational and controversial. So why do these attitudes still seem to exist?

One reason is that, like Typhoid Mary, one person can spread a lot of disease. The incident I mentioned above happened only a couple of months ago. How many more people has that one person similarly confronted in his attempts to help them? He really pissed off the person who told me about it--how many others has this one person similarly affected?

Another problem is that many of the caustic words of the past are still in use via the magic of the Internet. When I learned decompression, I was taught that there were 13 reasons that a DIR diver does not use 80% O2 for deco. Those 13 reasons were created long ago, but they are still being quoted in instruction today. Here is a DIR-based web site that keeps those reasons prominently displayed for its customers. A quick Google search showed that those same 13 reasons can be found in many places today, so they are still a part of the culture. The shop I mentioned above banks 80% O2 because of the large demand of its customers--how tactful do you think they find it to be told that one of the reasons that they are wrong in doing so is that

"Only a card-carrying stroke would do something like this, and showing up with 80/20 is no different than wearing a sign on your back saying 'I am a stroke, and have the papers to prove it'. It announces to all the world that you have no clue, kind of like wearing clip-on suspenders or having dog dirt on your shoes."​

Finally, even more cautious words can be misconstrued or taken to an extreme. For example, an Internet search reveals an article by Dan Volker describing how DIR divers can make recreational divers better. In the final section it talks about the importance of all buddies on a team diving with the same gear, meaning BP/Ws and long hoses. It says,

And of course, keep in mind an even bigger rule than all others mentioned in this article--Rule number one is don't dive with unsafe divers. Try to dive only with people you know are safe, and who dive the same procedures and configurations you do. If you are "stuck" with someone you see gearing up badly, with a poor configuration, try a good natured explanation of why the "Doing it Right" system would have him/her configured differently.​

A DIR diver reading this gets a clear message that if he is "stuck" diving with someone who is not DIR, then he or she has a mission to help that person understand why it is better to be a DIR diver. The message should be delivered good naturedly, but it should be delivered. The non-DIR diver reading this gets the clear message that a DIR diver feels "stuck" in that choice of partner, and knows that a good natured lecture will be coming. The goal might be to help, but there are those who will not appreciate it, and there are those who will naturally fear a coming dive with someone they know to be DIR.