A somewhat sad conversation last night

[MXGratefulDiver]

I never once liked this statement, and I dearly wish it would go away.

Everything in scuba is arguably to some extent an equipment solution to a skill problem. If we had the skill to breathe under water whilst seeing where we were going and were able to make good time doing it, we would not need a scuba unit, mask, or fins. While that is an absurd, extreme example, it is true to some extent of every piece of scuba equipment. We can dive with a tank cradled in our arms if we wanted to--a BCD simply makes it all easier. We can propel ourselves with fins anywhere we want, but many DIR divers use scooters without apology. Every piece of equipment we use in scuba makes our diving easier in some way, so every piece of equipment is in a way an equipment solution to a skill problem.

For me, the issue is this: does this equipment provide an unnecessary ease while at the same time creating a potential problem, such as a failure point? Does the potential problem override the added ease? If it is a potential failure, how great is the potential for that failure, and how serious is the failure should it occur?

To me, those are the critical questions that must be considered. A simple phrase like "equipment solution to a skill problem" short circuits that thinking, much as the bleating of the sheep in Animal Farm drowns out rational discussion.

I use a similar explanation to my students when talking about equipment choices, except I use the term "convenience factor" ... one must always weigh the benefits of convenience against the potential drawbacks of that convenience. A common example is a purge valve in a mask. What problem does it solve? How hard would it be to solve that problem if the convenience were taken away? And what are the drawbacks ... real and potential ... to adding the convenience.

There are many such choices to be made in scuba ... and not all of them are going to be the same optimal choices for each diver. In the end, we all need to decide what conveniences matter to us, and what drawbacks ... real and potential ... we are willing to put up with in order to enjoy those conveniences.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[mathauck0814]

TSandM has managed to start a thread which has distilled and concentrated years of SB threads into one thread which describes a dominating aspect of SB. Now if she could only start similar threads on the topics of pony bottles/Air2 and split fins we could all go home, never to come here again.

It seems that TSandM's question of what could change that would engender a more favorable impression of "DIR" divers has been answered by Dan; those "DIR" divers could be more instructional and less obnoxious in their attempts to extol the virtues of their methods. My beef is generally with the presentation of these ideas, not with their content, so I think Dan's is a reasonable suggestion.

 

[BDSC]

we could all go home, never to come here again.

I am home but would rather be diving. :depressed:

 

[danvolker]

So let me ask you Dan, would those same high level PADI instructors know what to look for and how to fix him if they didn't have GUE Fundies? Would other high level PADI instructors who have not been through GUE Fundies know what to look for? Would just PADI training be enough for them to recognize the guys problem?

I actually think over 80% of all instructors from any agency, could have figured out the biggest problems, and fixed them for this guy.
I do not have to be politically correct when I speak to people at the BHB, and so I will use my personal feeling that a PADI or NAUI instructor, or NASE, or whatever, that has gone through Fundies, will have a better handle on perfecting trim than that same person had they NOT gone through this.
If someone asks, "Dan, what instructor do you recommend"... why should I have to recommend someone I don't even know anything about?
Why can't I recommend what I like? If someone asks you, I imagine YOU will recommend whoever YOU like....

 

[The Chairman]

In any event, seeing the world through a DIR mindset, I think there is more incentive to "try and help", to try and say something that might make this guy change.

Rly? I'm not DIR and have that mindset. In fact, I would suggest that many, many people here on ScubaBoard aren't DIR and are very motivated to help people change. I trained a student this past weekend and invited her mom to come dive with us. Why would I double my problems? Because, I was certain (knowing who certified her) that her skills were less than adequate. In fact, I worked on the mom more than my student. My student worked on her mom as well. Why on earth would I want to have my student consistently buddy up with a less than competent diver?

Yes, I have taken time out from my classes to help other divers out, but that's an exception. I will point out certain divers to my students to show how I DON'T want them dive. Like the class kneeling in the sand last week as I was guiding my Discover Diving clients. The reason I don't go straighten out more divers is that I have a commitment to the ones in my care. Their training comes first and I don't always have time to take care of the other divers floundering around me. That's not a DIR issue. BTW, my DSD's buoyancy was better than the DM with the video camera taking vids of the class kneeling in the sand. We've heard it said so many times here on ScubaBoard that it's almost cliche': It's not the agency: it's the instructor! All agencies claim to be the "best" in one regard or another. Don't believe me? Just ask them. My OW water students have a superior skill set than most of their counterparts simply because I demand that.

BTW, without tooting my own horn (toot, toot), I bet ScubaBoard has made a larger impact on overall diver safety than the DIR philosophy has. Just my own completely biased opinion there.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Pete,
The post TS&M made was about why DIR has such a bad connotation in some circles...
I am trying to illustrate something.....Yesterday at the BHB, the dive area was packed...Probably at least a dozen instructors were there , and a very large number of good divers. Even though this guy cut right through the dive classes, and a great many divers saw him and how bad he was, no one said anything. No one wanted to "rock the boat"...or no one wanted a confrontation, or ...no one felt like it was appropriate for them to say anything.
I was the only one that decided to bother with this..that decided to attempt to help this guy.
You have to consider the most likely response, even if you are polite, is that the guy is going to tell you to screw off.

In any event, seeing the world through a DIR mindset, I think there is more incentive to "try and help", to try and say something that might make this guy change.

So my point is that while DIR gets a bad rap, our efforts have helped many people. Back when we first started talking about DIR ideas around 1996 or so, it was not-- "you need a bp/wing" or "you need Fundies".........It was more along the lines of "your hoses are wrong--here is why, and try this, you may like it better".....or...."you are swimming head up and feet down....there is a better way"...or, of course, the "whole discussion of the long hose primary, and how buddy based diving can improve adventure and safety". Halcyon was not even available to anyone outside of us, for almost a year after Robert came up with the design....but we were still trying to help people with DIR ideas, that cost nothing....but that made sense....Maybe DIR people are just hated because we are the ones that say something. ???

Nah ... I think it has more to do with how it gets said. There's a big difference in how you'll be perceived if you're judgmental vs respectful.

This isn't a DIR thing either ... I was on a liveaboard recently with a fellow who, as a ScubaPro dealer, went on and on about how much better his equipment was than mine. It took real effort to maintain a polite facade.

I think most people appreciate helpful advice if it's presented in a way that first gives them the choice between hearing it or not ... and then is offered in a manner that's courteous and helpful. Sometimes it takes effort ... but the payoff is worth it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added April 16th, 2012 at 02:35 PM ----------

This thread is finally starting to make some sense. Reduction to core values.

Any dive agency that intentionally brands itself as being "the best" will necessarily have problems in the "warm and fuzzy" arena. Where is the surprise in this?

I'm not sure I buy into that logic ... everybody markets themselves as "the best" in one way or another. For example ...

As a PADI Diver, you carry the most respected and sought after scuba credentials in the world.

Basic Online & Advanced Professional Scuba Diving Certification Courses - PADI Scuba Diving Training Organization

NAUI’s global reputation for the best in training and educational products reflects its core values of quality dive training through education.

NAUI Comp Overview

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added April 16th, 2012 at 02:37 PM ----------

TSandM has managed to start a thread which has distilled and concentrated years of SB threads into one thread which describes a dominating aspect of SB. Now if she could only start similar threads on the topics of pony bottles/Air2 and split fins we could all go home, never to come here again.

... what would be the fun in that?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[danvolker]

Rly? I'm not DIR and have that mindset. In fact, I would suggest that many, many people here on ScubaBoard aren't DIR and are very motivated to help people change. I trained a student this past weekend and invited her mom to come dive with us. Why would I double my problems? Because, I was certain (knowing who certified her) that her skills were less than adequate. In fact, I worked on the mom more than my student. My student worked on her mom as well. Why on earth would I want to have my student consistently buddy up with a less than competent diver?

Yes, I have taken time out from my classes to help other divers out, but that's an exception. I will point out certain divers to my students to show how I DON'T want them dive. Like the class kneeling in the sand last week as I was guiding my Discover Diving clients. The reason I don't go straighten out more divers is that I have a commitment to the ones in my care. Their training comes first and I don't always have time to take care of the other divers floundering around me. That's not a DIR issue. BTW, my DSD's buoyancy was better than the DM with the video camera taking vids of the class kneeling in the sand. We've heard it said so many times here on ScubaBoard that it's almost cliche': It's not the agency: it's the instructor! All agencies claim to be the "best" in one regard or another. Don't believe me? Just ask them. My OW water students have a superior skill set than most of their counterparts simply because I demand that.

BTW, without tooting my own horn (toot, toot), I bet ScubaBoard has made a larger impact on overall diver safety than the DIR philosophy has. Just my own completely biased opinion there.

Actually Pete, I think you are more DIR than you let on....as much of DIR is a mindset you could have entirely independently of George, WKPP, GUE, or any of us.

As to SB.....I think Scubaboard was the most effective media ever to put out DIR ideas, in a manner that was not offensive, and to get them discussed to the point of real understanding. In that sense, as the leader of this media, you have a position in DIR potentially more important than that which George had.

 

[nimoh]

This isn't a DIR thing either ... I was on a liveaboard recently with a fellow who, as a ScubaPro dealer, went on and on about how much better his equipment was than mine. It took real effort to maintain a polite facade.

whether it is DIR or Scubapro, there is a big difference between participating in a discussion and listening to a sales pitch

 

[Doomnova]

I think there are OW students that could fix him

Actually there is a member of the scuba club here who pulled a similar dives (it was my 3rd dive after OW). It rpretty much started out us getting in our gear setups and checking our buddy teams. I got pairs up with the diver i question. I asked how much weight how is it setup. 15lbs in 2 pockets and 20 on his belt. I was going in my head after reading the PPB portion of my AOW course materials that he shouldn't need that much in a 2 piece 7mm wetsuit. I mentioned that he saidI'm very floaty. As the others were done and it was a pretty warm day I decided to leave it at that. Now the break water walk for those who don't know can be upto 1km or .625miles we walked out to between flags 3 and 4 which is about 75% of the distance out. Along the way we noted that my buddy was lagging behind alot. One of the DM's who wasn't diving that day was walking with him. Every asked what was his problem and I said 50lbs of weight + gear... the general comment from the rest of the group was "what is he out to do skin a boat or something" I just kept my mouth shut. We had been standing out in the sun in ful gear for about 10 min by the time he got to us. So the rest of the group had jumped in the water to cool off and I just sat down on the break water with my feet in cool off ( it gets a little warm in a drysuit). He's winded doubled over by the time he gets out to us. I suggest the others to get started with the dive while we get in and give my buddy time to rest up. Every decided to wait.

The dive starts about 5 min later. I was pretty much horizontal in the water as I always have been. I note my buddy A is sitting about 75 degrees up from the horizontal and fighting to keep fro sinking to the bottom. I ask if he's ok and indicate for him to inflate his BCD. He indicates it is. As the bottom at this area of the breakwater is about 90ft below I signal to him we should go up and turn back. He indicates no and says he is fine 9the on thing he did have was good hand signals). So I choose to accept his judgement even though I'm thinking its not correct. But being fresh out of OW and him having ~30 dives over the last 5 years as he told me later I figured I'll just differ to his judgement. The dive continues and after about 10 min into the dive he signals half air. I look at mine and I'm not even at 2300 yet (we both had 2900ish to start). So we turn back and when it comes to our safety stop I end up having to give him my backup since hes' down to 200PSI.....

After we get to the surface he's like wow you look so natural you must have like 50 dives under your belt I replied no that was my 7th including my OW and my second in a drysuit. So we talk and hes like how come I burned through my air so fast... I told him in all honesty its your weighting and your trim. Your completely out of position and to be honest very much over weighted. I said here is a point to carrying an extra lb or two but there is a point to over kill. That he was in my opinion unsafe with his amount of weight as I was concerned that if something happened and he was down much deeper that 50ft where we were and could not ditch his weight for one reason or another(thinking absolute worst case here) that he might not be able to get back up. I think I went a bit over board there but I felt I needed to punch this point home to him looking back at it now. So Iwent over the weighting guidelines and with a storm blowing in we didn't have time to sit down and do a weight check. But I strong suggested he get a weight check done during his next dive and make it in the shallows. As the club has good DM's I knew they could do that and talked it over with the 2 we had there that day and they agreed to pass on the information to the rest the next time he signed up for a dive. In this case it was really diver negligence/ignorance. We have since had a few chats and he says my suggestions have all helped him out a ton either through referring him to sites with good demonstrations of skills and reason to and why for doing this as they are done. Giving him advice on how to fix some issues I have had and fixed and suggestions about picking 3 thing to work on each dive. From what I have heard he has fixed alot of these issues including dumping ~15lbs of weight from his gear. He said to me thanks for giving him a boot in the butt an getting him on a path to being a better diver.

 

[The Chairman]

In that sense, as the leader of this media, you have a position in DIR potentially more important than that which George had.

Thank you for the kind words. Like I said: I'm kinda DIR's Strokes Person.

There is much that I do that would never, ever be accepted as being DIR. I am way too fluid in my gear choice and diving style. Heck, I rarely dive a BP&Wing anymore and I often side mount!

:shocked2: ​