A picture is worth a 1000 words

[DevonDiver]

Obvious counter-question: Did or does anything provided by PADI, IDC or whatever, encourage or recommend the teaching of skills on knees?

Every static skill taught and demonstrated on my IDC, and every IDC I have witnessed, was from the knees.

Every static skill assessed on my IE was from the knees (showing "proper control")

The 'PADI Guide To Teaching' (>2013/14) specifically describes certain skills to be taught from the knees.

The PADI OW video shows every static skill in confined water demonstrated from the knees.

Most PADI manuals, for courses with confined water elements, up to and including, the PADI Tec-Rec 'Tech Deep' and (brand new) CCR courses show static skills taught from the knees.

The sequencing of OW confined water skills in the PADI Instructor Manual specifically states (standards) a progression of buoyancy training from one module to the next - whereby neutral buoyancy (as a taught and assessed skill) is not fully introduced until module 4. That is cross-referenced against a specific prohibition on instructors "changing the sequencing of skills from one module to another", meaning that they may not bring skills forward (you can't hover before CW4 etc etc)

 

[boulderjohn]

Who is a PADI representative. That is "my" experience with PADI, as is kneeling on the bottom performing skills.

No, he is someone who is a PADI instructor. He does not represent PADI as an organization.

PADI makes that very clear with an annual statement reminding people that they are not an "agency' in the legal sense. The only thing they control is the areas of instruction specified by their standards. The local shop is free to set their own policies beyond that.

 

[Peter_C]

Semantics John. Perception is 9/10ths of it. To me, that store and instructor are representing PADI.

I really don't care, as my basic training is done and I have moved on to train with another agency that fits my preferred diving system.

 

[Diver0001]

My aim is to make that buoyancy impeccable and precise. That's a lot easier... and more productive... when students arrive for training with some semblance of basic ability.

Well yeah. Like you I get a lot of students who need help with this. In fact, because my passion is in helping inexperienced divers, I would say that I probably get considerably more students than you do who need help with their buoyancy control and ones who need considerable more help with their buoyancy control.

The difference between us is that it doesn't frustrate me, I look at what I have to work with in terms of core skills and I make a plan for improving that as much as we can in the time we have available. You would look at the same situation and get irritated that you have to "waste time" on it and feel that you have to blame someone, and that "someone" through all of your posting, is usually PADI.

It's a difference in attitude that make a big difference in my mind to the quality of instruction you're able to provide. One approach based in optimism and a sincere drive to help the student improve and one based in pessimism and blaming.

As a student, who would you rather have? An instructor who says you have buoyancy control issues, starts by looking at what you CAN do and comes with an action plan for bringing you to the next level or an instructor who says you have buoyancy control issues, rolls his eyes, blames your former instructors, makes deep sighs of frustration and and says, "Ok... looks like we need to sort THAT out TOO..."

At least that's how it comes across to me.

R..

 

[Nemrod]

PadI no Padi, no class, no skill, should be taught ever, kneeling on the bottom. Teaching a skill kneeling on the bottom teaches kneeling on the bottom. Kneeling on the bottom has significant eco-consequences.

N

 

[mala]

PadI no Padi, no class, no skill, should be taught ever, kneeling on the bottom. Teaching a skill kneeling on the bottom teaches kneeling on the bottom. Kneeling on the bottom has significant eco-consequences.

N

most students would know how to kneel before the class started and lets face it the pool is hardly full of coral.

skills while neutral is great-but not on day 1.

 

[Diver0001]

skills while neutral is great-but not on day 1.

For me it starts right when we descend in shallow water for the first set of skills. The water is too shallow for them to kneel so I put them in a fin pivot from the first moment they're under water.

They are never told to go to their knees, not once. If we do "line up" on the bottom for some reason, we line up in a fin pivot.

During Mod-1 once skills are done they're told to follow me and play "monkey see monkey do". by the end of the first pool session the majority of my students (about 8 out of 10) are able to hover well enough for standards, although it's not formally introduced until much later. This is just from maybe 30 min of playing monkey-see-monkey-do. With this basis, doing the rest of the course neutrally buoyant just gets easier and easier as you go.

It's really very easy once you get your fingers behind a few key elements. The most important thing is to believe it can be done, which can be a big leap of faith for some people. A few posts ago I wrote about an instructor who I showed first hand how to do this and he still didn't believe it.

That said, when I started with it I had to invent the wheel because I didn't know anyone who was teaching like this. The approach to each skill is slightly different, the approach to "control" is different for the DM's and the approach to teaching buoyancy control, hovering and descents requires a fully blown paradigm shift. So I didn't always find it easy (or even natural) at first. I also got a lot of resistance from colleagues. The shop's course director initially told me he thought it was "over teaching" but allowed it to continue when he could find nothing in the standards that contradicted the approach. Most of my other colleagues had reasons why they didn't want to try it, all of which were justifications for them to not change their ways. A few started to adopt it, or elements of it. A few still think it's a waste of time.

Ultimately the results speak for themselves and the difference in results is worth the effort.

R..

 

[boulderjohn]

most students would know how to kneel before the class started and lets face it the pool is hardly full of coral.

skills while neutral is great-but not on day 1.

You have evidently never experienced it. Doing it right from the start on dive one makes instruction so much easier you cannot believe it.

 

[DevonDiver]

You have evidently never experienced it. Doing it right from the start on dive one makes instruction so much easier you cannot believe it.

Absolutely agree.

 

[BluewaterSail]

It was seeing the PADI TecRec book, with pictures of valve drills on the knees, that solidified in my mind what agency I was NOT going to take any tech courses with. Its a buyers market. I don't think that anything will change while there are still more people who want to buy a card, than want to develop a skill. That's what needs to change. Unlike some other agencies which are non-profits, and want to do what's right, PADI is a business who wants to maximize profit. Which includes what they can earn from certifying large numbers of instructors as quickly and easily as possible. Can you imagine the disruption in the flow of profit if they all of a sudden required instructor candidates to do skills hovering?