A picture is worth a 1000 words

[Peter Guy]

Rob -- where did you find this:

What PADI actually says about it is this: "conduct as much of the training as possible while students are neutrally buoyant (rather than sitting on the bottom)".

I've been going (slowly) going through the new materials and like them. However, not all of the "on your knees" images have been eliminated, sigh.

Off to Maui tomorrow and I'm thinking I actually might go through the whole manual and video, guide to teaching, etc.

 

[Diver0001]

Several years ago I was doing a private class with a student and took the opportunity to demonstrate to the other instructors what could be achieved in an OW course by approaching it from neutral starting on day 1.

One of the things my student showed them was a demonstration of mask R&R while hovering, I believe it was in module 4. We had entered the water and had stopped 1/2 way to the bottom during the descent for a "pause", which is a standard thing I do. I guess her mask was pulling on her hair so she just whipped it off fixed her hair and put the mask back on again. Her buoyancy changed by less than 60 cm. We then went diving.

After that session I asked one of the other instructors what he thought and he said, "that's impossible. It was a fluke!"
And it's exactly that kind of defeatist attitude I'm trying to address in this thread. It's not impossible, it can be the norm. But you first have to believe it.

Another thing I showed them was the equipment R&R while neutral. I added a little twist to it for the demo. We were in a hover and both myself and my student took off our sets, then exchanged sets in mid water, which involved exchanging regulators as well as the set, and put each others set on before reversing it (essentially doing it twice). The same instructor repeated that he thought it was a fluke. I think the word he used was "ridiculous". How many "flukes" does it take to make "evidence"?

I know some people will refuse to believe that instructors can or will do this but with enough "evidence" more will try it. The trick, however, to getting someone to try it is to not tell them before they start that they're going to fail.

R..

---------- Post added November 28th, 2013 at 05:37 PM ----------

Rob -- where did you find this:

I quoted it from the synopsis in the UJ but I think it's in the new guide to teaching too. I still need to go through it all with a fine toothed comb too, tbh. I'm doing OW again starting in January and I don't have it all "burned in" yet.

R..

---------- Post added November 28th, 2013 at 05:47 PM ----------

Forgive me if I am wrong... but am I supposed to be teaching basic buoyancy to wreck students? Isn't that meant to be covered by prerequisite training? I'd much rather be progressing their skills to a higher level, rather than doing the job that was supposed to be done by prior instructors...

Not all learning is done in courses. And yes, you are supposed to be teaching basic buoyancy to any student you get who needs it. That IS part of progressing their skills to a higher level...

I wish....

For the casual reader this approach is commonly known as "moving the goal posts". So I'll repeat what I said, which is core skills work is part of every course and that's why you dive with your students. From Andy's description above of how frustrating he finds it to have to do this (ie, working on buoyancy control with his students) you can deduce for yourself why he "wishes".

It doesn't really concern me. I prefer actions, not words. The results speak for themselves. What I get in the door, is what I judge. If that changes from it's currently abysmal state, I will certainly let you know.

I wish...

R..

 

[DevonDiver]

I know some people will refuse to believe that instructors can or will do this but with enough "evidence" more will try it. The trick, however, to getting someone to try it is to not tell them before they start that they're going to fail.

Not really. It's an organizational responsibility. PADI has IDCs, IE, Instructor-Updates, Speciality Instructor Training Courses, Staff-Instructor Courses etc etc etc...

They train the instructor-trainer. The instructor-trainers train the trainers. The trainers train the students.

That training is reflected in specific training and instructor standards.

If they want change, they have all the processes, procedures, policy control and opportunities to enact that change.

There really is no scope for apologists and blame-shifting.

From Andy's description above of how frustrating he finds it to have to do this (ie, working on buoyancy control with his students) you can deduce for yourself why he "wishes".

I can only deduce, from this, that you can't read properly...

You seem to think I am "anti-buoyancy", or somehow negative to the changes PADI 'might' make. I am not. I was doing neutral buoyancy training years before PADI got 'clued-in' on the concept. Neither do I dislike 'working on buoyancy control' with students. What I do dislike, however, is doing OW level buoyancy training with divers who supposedly hold tech-level prerequisite qualifications and who are paying me to teach them tech-level skills... not to remediate their failed prior training. I don't dislike doing it... I do dislike the abject frustration and disappointment that those divers feel when confronted with the evidence that their past training has left them under-prepared and under-skilled for the (supposed) next step in their diving evolution.

I spend hours, many hours, working buoyancy with students. My aim is to make that buoyancy impeccable and precise. That's a lot easier... and more productive... when students arrive for training with some semblance of basic ability. Many don't. They were let down... by their prior instructors and the sloppy standards that permitted those instructors to sign-off underwhelmingly capable divers.

 

[boulderjohn]

I spend hours, many hours, working buoyancy with students. My aim is to make that buoyancy impeccable and precise. That's a lot easier... and more productive... when students arrive for training with some semblance of basic ability. Many don't. They were let down... by their prior instructors and the sloppy standards that permitted those instructors to sign-off underwhelmingly capable divers.

I feel the same frustration, and that is why I have worked so very, very hard to change that culture. I feel we are finally seeing some progress.

What has been more frustrating to me, though, is to have my efforts to change that culture continuously and vigorously opposed by YOU in your incessant drive to convince all PADI instructors that the standards require them to teach on their knees. If you are so opposed to it, why have you been working so very hard to promote it?

 

[DevonDiver]

John, I am opposed to nothing except re-writing the past and PADI-apologist behavior.

If some were to be believed, the source of all PADI's buoyancy woes lies entirely at the feet of their instructor cadre. I do not believe that it does. That cadre behaves, and performs, only as it is taught and directed to... by PADI.

I believe that there is nothing 'accidental' in the overwhelming global trend for PADI instructors teaching from a kneeling position. A trend that spans continents and has lingered for decades. That trend is the product of how PADI trained and directed instructors to teach... their IDCs, IEs, materials and manuals.

I am not against reform. I welcome it.

However, I also believe that if PADI wishes to effect change, then they need to do so through the authority that they possess - by directing specifically, through standards, that teaching from the knees is no longer acceptable. Not 'suggesting' or 'recommending'... or any other vague language that can be interpreted or ignored.... or otherwise be a catalyst for inertia.

I have taught in neutral buoyancy for a long time... since before I became a PADI instructor, actually (I teach for multiple agencies...and was tech trained before taking the IDC/IE). I had external influences...and those shaped my approach to teaching. Nothing provided by PADI that I was taught, or witnessed, encouraged or recommended neutral buoyancy instruction. Zilch.

I have no intention, or desire, to denigrate the excellent work that you have done in pushing PADI towards a more effective buoyancy teaching philosophy. I merely disagree with the contention that the fault lay with the workforce, not the management.

 

[Peter_C]

Now I understand why during training the instructors wouldn't let anyone have a camera. That way no photos of us on our knees could be taken. From the pool to the ocean all of our training was done on our knees, other than the fin pivot, and swimming exercises.

I think it is a PADI information suppression by not allowing cameras from dive number one!

 

[boulderjohn]

John, I am opposed to nothing except re-writing the past and PADI-apologist behavior.

...

I have no intention, or desire, to denigrate the excellent work that you have done in pushing PADI towards a more effective buoyancy teaching philosophy. I merely disagree with the contention that the fault lay with the workforce, not the management.

Let's be accurate.

I have always said that management did not do an adequate job of promoting neutral instruction. I have always said that we were changing a long standing culture. So on that point we agree.

Here is where we disagree. For the past year or two you have written over and over and over and over and over and over again that PADI standards REQUIRE instructors to teach students on their knees, and anyone who does otherwise is violating standards and risking a lawsuit should something happen. You have clearly said that PADI will not support you if you instruct other than on the knees. When official representatives of PADI headquarters, including the President and CEO of PADI, stated in so many words that neutral, horizontal instruction was not only within standards, it was preferred, you said that they were just speaking their own opinion, and their opinion that it was within standards was no more valid than your opinion that it was not.

I thank you for your kind words about my efforts to change PADI standards and policies in this regard. It has not been all that hard, really. I faced no real opposition from PADI--they were easily persuaded. The only serious opposition I faced, and it was indeed very serious--came from you and your comrades in your quest to stop us-- DCBC and beanojones. Because of your obsession with casting PADI as the great Satan, you have almost certainly done more in the last year to prevent instructors from shifting away from teaching on their knees than any other human on the face of this Earth. Congratulations! You have contributed mightily to incompetent instruction worldwide!

---------- Post added November 28th, 2013 at 11:02 AM ----------

Now I understand why during training the instructors wouldn't let anyone have a camera. That way no photos of us on our knees could be taken. From the pool to the ocean all of our training was done on our knees, other than the fin pivot, and swimming exercises.

I think it is a PADI information suppression by not allowing cameras from dive number one!

PADI does not forbid the use of cameras. That would be your local instructor.

 

[dfx]

I have taught in neutral buoyancy for a long time... since before I became a PADI instructor, actually (I teach for multiple agencies...and was tech trained before taking the IDC/IE). I had external influences...and those shaped my approach to teaching. Nothing provided by PADI that I was taught, or witnessed, encouraged or recommended neutral buoyancy instruction. Zilch.

Obvious counter-question: Did or does anything provided by PADI, IDC or whatever, encourage or recommend the teaching of skills on knees?

 

[DevonDiver]

I have always said that management did not do an adequate job of promoting neutral instruction. I have always said that we were changing a long standing culture. So on that point we agree.

Thank you.

Here is where we disagree. For the past year or two you have written over and over and over and over and over and over again that PADI standards REQUIRE instructors to teach students on their knees, and anyone who does otherwise is violating standards and risking a lawsuit should something happen.

I stand by that. I hold the long-standing, global, trend of teaching from the knees as evidence of it.

As you have said elsewhere, most standards are open to a high degree of interpretation. THAT is how the vast majority of instructors...and instructor-trainers interpreted those standards. It was an obvious interpretation - and it was specifically supported, by PADI, through a plethora of materials and photos indicating that interpretation.

When official representatives of PADI headquarters, including the President and CEO of PADI, stated in so many words that neutral, horizontal instruction was not only within standards, it was preferred,....

To be polite, I'd suspect that a slightly 'revisionist' communication.

Or are we to believe that PADI would publicly admit to having deliberately promoted an ineffective training methodology for many decades?

"I am sorry that we promoted and endorsed teaching from the knees... it really did produce several decades worth of sub-standard divers..."

(A quick route to losing your job as a CEO, no?)

Because of your obsession with casting PADI as the great Satan, you have almost certainly done more in the last year to prevent instructors from shifting away from teaching on their knees than any other human on the face of this Earth. Congratulations! You have contributed mightily to incompetent instruction worldwide!

Laughable.

 

[Peter_C]

PADI does not forbid the use of cameras. That would be your local instructor.

Who is a PADI representative. That is "my" experience with PADI, as is kneeling on the bottom performing skills.