scubastingray
Contributor
I did the PVC buoyancy gates on my OW cert. I don't think we were ever taught to kneel either. Occasionally we'd end up on the bottom of the pool though.
A picture is worth a 1000 words
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Well, Andy, you know very well that no agency is going to dictate exactly HOW every little thing is done. From day 1 the standards have always described WHAT has to be done and the HOW was given as advice in the guide to teaching. This is done specifically to do two things (a) give the instructor a view on what the agency believes are best practices with respect to the HOW and (b) leave an opening for creativity. That said, it's quite clear what PADI wants to see happen in the OW course and it's not what a lot of instructors have been doing.
Anyway, your argument is an old tactic that might appeal to someone who doesn't know how the system is intended to work. You argue that because PADI won't expel a member for not doing things in a specific way that it means they're not committed. This is cynical and pessimistic and shows, imo, either a lack of understanding of the educational principles underlying the method or a lack of respect for the people who will read your post and be mislead by it.
Regardless, it's still clear what PADI wants. For some of our colleagues this is going to be a major paradigm shift and will involve a difficult task of re-training themselves to teach in a very different way. I don't believe that a conscientious instructor would suggest that they will (or should) just give up or not be bothered because the agency isn't threatening them with expulsion.
What will help overcome inertia is instructors leading from the vanguard. You seem to be making it clear that you don't think it will work. You could choose to lead, encourage and promote, but instead you choose to believe that little can be done to overcome inertia and in my mind you have already defeated yourself. There are more than enough examples of instructors on this board and elsewhere who have overcome their own past and are leading by example, even to the point where the changes to standards were at least in part due to their efforts to convince PADI to commit to a new paradigm. From the beginning this change was made from the ground up and the cart was pulled by people who wouldn't let themselves be told, "you can't".
Exactly how you would expect. The WHAT in "blue", the HOW in "black". But you already knew that so we will await the inevitable beating of your straw man until he is "black" and "blue"
DevonDiver
N/A
???
---------- Post added November 28th, 2013 at 11:19 PM ----------
The only way that this concerns me is the quality of student that arrives for my sidemount/wreck/technical courses. In most cases, I have to do a lot of very remedial core skills work. I'd love for novice divers to develop good quality core skills, believe me.
That's why I've been authoring articles on buoyancy, trim, weighting, propulsion and other core scuba skills for years... If only PADI could replicate that.
My point remains, if PADI have a determination to change how things are done, then their actions (not their words) will reflect that. I think it's fair to say that if standards are precise, or vague, will be a good indicator of that determination.
Perhaps PADI could choose to "lead, encourage and promote"... it is, after all, their role as the scuba certification agency. Is it not? Or better still... to dictate... as is there prerogative.
Putting neutral buoyancy as a performance requirement for specific skills is not "dictating exactly HOW every little thing is done". Let's not over-exaggerate. They make similar standards for plenty of other skills; i.e. ".. in water too deep to stand.." or "...without visual reference..." or "..in proper buoyancy...".
Are excuses already being made for PADI, before the changes are even implemented? How sad that expectation would be so low...
I still didn't get my answer about how the new PADI standards were written....
Methane containment.
Well... This is another topic entirely. There is a gap between what can realistically be expected of a newly certified OW diver and the level of competence required to enter a technical course. You're not seeing people coming straight out of OW, or if you are then I think I found the problem....
... and of course you need to do core skills work with them. Core skills work is part of every scuba course. That's the reason you dive with them instead of doing it all in the classroom.
I agree. I also think that the changes to standards, the raising of the bar and the work PADI is doing to make instructors aware of those changes is reflecting that. I understand that they're redoing the videos too, although I'm not sure how far they are with that, tbh. In any case, the commitment to transition from "teaching the world to dive" to "teaching the world to BECOME DIVERS" is pretty clear.
I guess if your glass is 1/2 empty then you will fail to see (or choose not to see) it.
You're a tec-rec instructor so you have access to the pros site. I would recommend that you review the new materials for yourself. It will give you a better view of it than I can. (although I have a feeling that we will not choose to interpret things in exactly the same way
)R..
When we wrote an article on teaching students in a neutral, horizontal posture, one of our co-authors was Sam Miller, a noted dive historian. His primary contribution was to research the history of dive instruction to see how and when such instruction got started. Unfortunately, his portion of the article was edited out prior to publication, so you can't read it unless you get a hold of the first draft. What he discovered was that teaching on the knees prior to the invention of any buoyancy compensating device--including a wet suit--was pretty much a requirement. It was quite literally the only way to do it. Allowing for the possibility of outlying instruction about which we had no record, we determined that ALL initial instruction by ALL agencies was originally done on the knees. It thus became a firmly rooted tradition that was not questioned when later changes in equipment technology not only made horizontal, neutral instruction possible, it made it easier than instruction on the knees.
In this discussion, we see people arguing against each other, with everyone saying things that are true. Even though they seem contradictory, they really are not. I agree with everything everyone has said for the most part.
1. Yes, the overwhelming majority of instructors in all the agencies combined teach on the knees. This includes PADI. (Yes, I know that there are a few agencies teaching a handful of students each year that do not allow it currently.)
2. Yes, because of that very strong tradition, almost all images of students learning show them on their knees.
3. No, it is not required by standards, and it was never required by standards.
4. Yes, although PADI leadership has previously told me privately that they prefer students to be taught neutral and horizontal, they have little until now to promote it. (I challenged two of their central office staff members on this very topic several times over the past couple of years.)
5. Yes, the new PADI standards do specifically state that as much as possible, students should be taught neutrally and horizontally from the very start of instruction. It remains to be seen how much this will be promoted.
6. Yes, all pictures and videos of students learning on their knees are outdated. PADI has specifically said it will never produce such images and videos again.
7. No, other than the few agencies mentioned above (which started out as tech diving agencies), I don't know of any other agency that has taken this step.
By the way, just because an image shows someone on the knees, it does not mean it has official endorsement. Here are some examples:
a. When PADI published the above mentioned article on teaching students while neutral and horizontal in its professional journal, it had to make the article fit into the space provided in the magazine, as is always true in all magazines. That is the job of the layout editing staff. These people are trained in magazine design, not diving. They often do not even read the articles they are placing in the magazine. They had some space to fill, so they went to a stock photo of student instruction to fill that space. It showed a class being taught on the knees, in total contradiction to the content of the article. (I received an apology for that.)
b. When I started to teach the new TecReational Diver Distinctive Specialty last year, I made a carefully-worded announcement to be delivered via the shop's newsletter. The class has content similar to GUE Fundamentals, teaching stable horizontal trim, buoyancy, and advanced propulsion techniques (and more). When the newsletter was sent out, the person who put it all together decided it needed a picture. He spotted the word "buoyancy" and found just the shot--a diver doing the Buddha hover. Thus the course announcement went out to all prospective students with a prominent picture of someone doing exactly the opposite of what the class teaches. I imagine many of the people who might have taken the class saw the picture and did not bother reading the article.
c. Many of the videos and images you see published are made by individual shops and instructors, without the knowledge of PADI, let alone their endorsement. I assume such images and videos will continue to be published for quite some time.
The new PADI OW standards (i.e., "blue bold") say, in part, for confined water:
- With a buddy, descend in water too deep in which to stand using the five-point method and use buoyancy control to stop the descent without contacting the bottom.
- With a buddy, swim over a simulated environmentally sensitive bottom while maintaining buoyancy control.
- With a buddy, practice previously learned skills with emphasis on neutral buoyancy, hovering and swimming.
- Demonstrate awareness and make efforts to avoid contact with simulated sensitive bottom and fragile aquatic organisms.
In the guide to teaching (all just suggestions and recommendations, no "standards"), we also find (examples) for confined water:
- Also, as divers gain buoyancy control, begin to introduce and practice skills in mid-water or while divers gently rest on fins tips, instead of kneeling stationary on the bottom. This adds realism, builds confidence and creates good dive habits.
And for open water, we find (examples):
- descend slowly and be careful not to disturb or damage the bottom.
- Mask removal, replacement and clearing — For realistic application, have divers practice this skill while neutrally buoyant or with only fin tip in contact with an insensitive bottom.
Yes, many instructors will find this difficult. Suck it up.
- With a buddy, descend in water too deep in which to stand using the five-point method and use buoyancy control to stop the descent without contacting the bottom.
- With a buddy, swim over a simulated environmentally sensitive bottom while maintaining buoyancy control.
- With a buddy, practice previously learned skills with emphasis on neutral buoyancy, hovering and swimming.
- Demonstrate awareness and make efforts to avoid contact with simulated sensitive bottom and fragile aquatic organisms.
In the guide to teaching (all just suggestions and recommendations, no "standards"), we also find (examples) for confined water:
- Also, as divers gain buoyancy control, begin to introduce and practice skills in mid-water or while divers gently rest on fins tips, instead of kneeling stationary on the bottom. This adds realism, builds confidence and creates good dive habits.
And for open water, we find (examples):
- descend slowly and be careful not to disturb or damage the bottom.
- Mask removal, replacement and clearing — For realistic application, have divers practice this skill while neutrally buoyant or with only fin tip in contact with an insensitive bottom.
Yes, many instructors will find this difficult. Suck it up.
DevonDiver
N/A
No, I'm seeing substantially higher qualified divers... who still don't have adequate core skills.
Of course, it's not just 'tech'... I teach sidemount and wreck also (so, think OW/AOW level students).. I usually need to do a lot of pre-course remedial training to get those divers to the bare minimum skills level to even begin to teach those classes.
Forgive me if I am wrong... but am I supposed to be teaching basic buoyancy to wreck students? Isn't that meant to be covered by prerequisite training? I'd much rather be progressing their skills to a higher level, rather than doing the job that was supposed to be done by prior instructors...
So, what you're saying is that PADI have a formal system of assessing, remediating and developing core scuba skills over the length of it's syllabus? So that these core skills (buoyancy, trim, propulsion, situational awareness, dive planning etc etc) are developed to provide a higher and higher level of competency in line with the entry requirements to each higher course? That 'prerequisites' actually mean something?
That, as a comparison, an AOW/Rescue/Deep qualified diver (the prerequisites for tech) should definitely be on a par with, for instance, a GUE fundies qualified diver?
I wish....
It doesn't really concern me. I prefer actions, not words. The results speak for themselves. What I get in the door, is what I judge. If that changes from it's currently abysmal state, I will certainly let you know.
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