A picture is worth a 1000 words

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For a thread titled "A picture is worth a 1000 words" there's an awful lot of talking going on here.

Dive training Circa 1941. New divers are told to avoid kneeling on the bottom for fear of detonating detached Limpet mines. Also discouraged from hand finning for fear of triggering attached Limpet mines. Basic skills taught: attaching and detaching Limpet mines.


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If a person teaching an advanced scuba class finds that an overwhelming number of students arrive without the basic skills needed to be successful in the course, then something needs to change. I would suggest the following, which is essentially what is done for a course like Calculus:

a. Make sure that the prerequisite skills are clearly identified prior to admission to the course.
b. Provide a lower level course to teach those skills to those who do not have them.

John, I think the point Andy seems to be trying to make is that he would really like it if there were a formalised lower level course (your option "b" above) but that it seems to be lacking.

I can sympathize with that to some extent as well since there does seem to be a gap between the formalised performance requirements for buoyancy control and propulsion throughout various recreational courses and the level of control you would need for high-tempo technical training, which I assume is what you'd get if it's being done on a fixed (vacation) time frame. Moreover with the relatively "laissez faire" attitude with respect to buoyancy control that we've seen a lot of in the past (knock on wood that this is starting to change) it would be difficult for him to predict what level of skill a student would have just based upon the existing certifications they could carry. So I do see his problem.

It makes me think about the DIR-F course I watched being done in Egypt a few years ago. The students had various levels of skill coming in but out of the... maybe 15 hours or so?... that they spent under water, what I saw them doing looked like about 10 hours of hovering and propulsion. I'm assuming this is about the gap that Andy is seeing and isn't able to handle easily in his time schedule. That would be quite a gap to close with remedial teaching on a short time frame, so again his frustration isn't hard to imagine.

He's mentioned before that he has a high opinion of DIR-F so I guess to put it in your terms, in lieu of an option "b", his option "a" could be to require DIR-F as an entry level prerequisite. That might solve the problem he's having.

R..
 
John, I think the point Andy seems to be trying to make is that he would really like it if there were a formalised lower level course (your option "b" above) but that it seems to be lacking.

I can sympathize with that to some extent as well since there does seem to be a gap between the formalised performance requirements for buoyancy control and propulsion throughout various recreational courses and the level of control you would need for high-tempo technical training, which I assume is what you'd get if it's being done on a fixed (vacation) time frame. Moreover with the relatively "laissez faire" attitude with respect to buoyancy control that we've seen a lot of in the past (knock on wood that this is starting to change) it would be difficult for him to predict what level of skill a student would have just based upon the existing certifications they could carry. So I do see his problem.

It makes me think about the DIR-F course I watched being done in Egypt a few years ago. The students had various levels of skill coming in but out of the... maybe 15 hours or so?... that they spent under water, what I saw them doing looked like about 10 hours of hovering and propulsion. I'm assuming this is about the gap that Andy is seeing and isn't able to handle easily in his time schedule. That would be quite a gap to close with remedial teaching on a short time frame, so again his frustration isn't hard to imagine.

He's mentioned before that he has a high opinion of DIR-F so I guess to put it in your terms, in lieu of an option "b", his option "a" could be to require DIR-F as an entry level prerequisite. That might solve the problem he's having.

R..

So if that's the problem, solve it!

Peter Guy wrote a PADI Distinctive Specialty called TecReational Diver. It has content similar to GUE Fundamentals. He teaches it.

I teach it as well. One of my students who took that class last spring, with no more than typical reef diver skills at the start, just went from there to completing the first two levels of his cave diving certification in four days from an instructor with a reputation for very high standards.

I was dissatisfied with the level of training in dive planning at the recreational level, including gas management. I wrote an extremely comprehensive course in advanced dive planning, and PADI approved it.

Peter offered his course to people who wanted it--that's how I got to teach it. I offered my class to anyone who wanted to teach it, and nearly 40 people asked for the outline.

In these situations, life gives you two options: 1) complain about the way things are, or 2) fix them. Your choice.
 
most students would know how to kneel before the class started and lets face it the pool is hardly full of coral.

skills while neutral is great-but not on day 1.

Not on day one? You're kidding right? If you can't do that you should not be teaching. Buoyancy and trim using proper weighting and horizontal ascents and descents are the very first skills I teach on scuba.

The first time they clear a mask on scuba, swap primary for octo, or remove and replace weights they are neutral and in trim. It doesn't matter that there is no coral in the pool. The bottom should be treated as if it had nails sticking up on it. It's this kind of defeatist attitude that keeps producing underwater tourists who think buoyancy and trim takes hundreds of dives.

And instructors who do as well since since they are producing dm's who can't hold a hover in trim or demo skills without getting on their knees.

Couple that with those who do the demo on their knees in some silly Marcel Marceau style on their knees that makes the skill look ten times harder than it is.

Watch a 5thdx video. That's how you should demo skills. Make it look easy to do and the student will believe it and get it down faster. Saying you can't do this or that on day one is a self defeating prophecy.
Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2
 
I have just read this thread from the first post. I read many accusations that instructors are not adequately training their students for more advance training. I have to wonder how much of this is the responsibility of the student. I am sure that truly dedicated diver will try and keep their skills honed and polished. But circumstances might not allow enough time in the water to accomplish this. And lesser dedicated diver might let their skills deteriorate even more. So instructors of advance diving might see more students with diminished skills than an instructor who deals with newer divers.

I am fairly new to the diving instruction game, just assisting and doing scuba reviews, so I do not have much of an opinion yet on teaching skills on knees. I demonstrated my PADI skills for my DM and AI courses on my knees as was the preferred methods. Since a meeting with BoulderJohn a couple of years about a year ago talking about the local dive industry in Metro-Denver, I have been doing my skills neutrally and demonstrating these in my Scuba Review classes. I did not find the transition from a kneeling approach to they neutral buoyancy approach difficult. But can see most diving students coming out of a class with good trim and buoyancy, taking that dive vacation, then letting their skills deteriorate until the next vacation in a year or so.

Instruction, regardless how good, can only do so much. Experience is still irreplaceable.

Just my 2 cents...

~Oldbear~
 
I used to think it was okay to kneel in the sand, then, one day, like "Horton and the Who," I looked really close at what all I had been kneeling upon and now I realize there is a lot of little critters in that sand. Of course, the sterile white quartz sand off the Emerald Coast (Destin, PC, Pensacola) maybe it is not so bad unless you kneel on a stingray. In other words, there are reasons to stay off the bottom other than ecological damage to the reef even when there is no reef.

N
 
So if that's the problem, solve it!

Peter Guy wrote a PADI Distinctive Specialty called TecReational Diver. It has content similar to GUE Fundamentals. He teaches it.

I teach it as well. One of my students who took that class last spring, with no more than typical reef diver skills at the start, just went from there to completing the first two levels of his cave diving certification in four days from an instructor with a reputation for very high standards.

I was dissatisfied with the level of training in dive planning at the recreational level, including gas management. I wrote an extremely comprehensive course in advanced dive planning, and PADI approved it.

Peter offered his course to people who wanted it--that's how I got to teach it. I offered my class to anyone who wanted to teach it, and nearly 40 people asked for the outline.

In these situations, life gives you two options: 1) complain about the way things are, or 2) fix them. Your choice.

I do agree with this, but it isn't always practicable. I'll explain the problems:

1) I wrote, and offer, a 'Pre-Tech Clinic'. It isn't a distinctive or certification course (I don't think it needs to be - the card has no value anyway). There's some flexibility in the clinic, that allows me to identify student strengths and weaknesses, to enable a targeted delivery. The primary goal is to prepare students for progression to advanced level diving courses. The secondary goal is to provide a better skill-set for recreational/tecreational level divers. It covers buoyancy, trim, propulsion, situational awareness, precision dive planning, gas management, redundant gas sources and ancillary skills, such as DSMB deployment and basic guideline work (navigational guidelines).

2) Neither my clinic, nor any 'distinctive' specialty on the market is a formal prerequisite for any given course. I cannot demand, nor enforce, attendance on that training - I can only suggest it. This differs from, for instance, Fundies, which is a mandatory step in the GUE process and is pass/fail.

3) In a holiday diving location, the timescale for training is very limited. Generally, I get a 5-6 day training window with a visiting student. I have no physical contact with them before the training, but I do tend to communicate and counsel extensively online before they arrive. I do a check-out dive at the outset of training - this is my first appreciation of the student's capabilities. I have found that possession of prerequisite qualifications is no indication of competency or skill-set. It is always surprise to see how the student performs 'for real'. The general trend is disappointing.

4) Most, if not all, students are predominantly focused on the fact that they possess the prerequisite qualifications for training, but overlook whether they have the prerequisite skills/competencies for that training. This illustrates the disconnect between certifications and the skill-levels they should represent. Very few students opt to pre-book the suggested 'clinic' or mentoring, because of (1) financial cost and (2) timescale.

5) If the student demonstrates skill deficiency on their check-out dive, there is a difficult decision to make. Do I progress with the course and dilute the quality of their training (lower outcome attained) because a proportion of initial syllabus time will be spent with remedial, rather than progressive, work? Or do I postpone commencement of the course and run a dedicated pre-training program for them to reach an appropriate competency level to subsequently permit the desired progression on the course they wish to undertake? Even if that means they no longer have time to complete their desired qualification?

6) If there is more than one student booked for the course, and one or more students requires remedial work, can I even postpone the course? If not, what extra training can I fit into the daily training schedule to compensate? If I do that, do I disadvantage other students? If there is too much potential disruption, can I send the skill-deficit student away (potentially ruining their annual vacation plans)? Or do I just cancel the course and work on remedial training (potentially ruining the experience for the other students attending)?


I do wish I had the 'luxury' of extended timescales, the option to send students away to practice more and come back later, to run bespoke and impromptu remedial training on demand, to postpone or delay courses if necessary... but I don't. That's the big difference between working with vacationing divers, versus divers in their home location.

What I need (as do a vast majority of instructors) is for the training prerequisites to MEAN SOMETHING. Because, at the moment, they do not. It means zilch to know that a student possess this certification card, or that qualification. Nothing at all. I should reasonably expect them to have the core skills and competencies necessary to begin a higher level of training - skills and competencies that should have been provided in prior, prerequisite training.

If an agency states "you need qualifications 'A', 'B' and 'C' before you can start training on course 'D'... then those prerequisites should have done everything necessary to provide that student with the correct foundations and baseline competencies necessary to start course 'D'. If not, then why ask for them in the first place???

If someone holds qualification 'A', 'B' and 'C' and books to undertake qualification 'D'... then I shouldn't have to cancel or postpone course 'D' because I need to conduct remedial training for competencies that should have been mastered on courses 'A', 'B' and 'C'.

John talks about writing distinctive courses to fix the problem. Yet I cannot demand students to take that course as a prerequisite.. and in many cases I simply don't have time or facility to do that because of other students on a course. I don't mind working until 10pm... doing a 14 hour training day... to make things work. I have to do that far more often than I'd want (just ask my wife). I do get resentful because my horrific working hours are a result of the laziness or incompetence of prior instructors...and the inability of the agency to formulate a progressive training syllabus that effectively ensures students are prepared for progression..

Shouldn't the existing syllabus of education be trusted to produce divers ready for progression? ... so that prerequisite training gives them the necessary prerequisite skills?

I wish I could 'fix the problem', but the best I can do is treat the symptoms (remedial/supplementary training). ISN'T IT BETTER TO TREAT THE CAUSE?

...and yes, I am unapologetic in my cynicism about the concept of writing and offering distinctive specialties that provide remedial training to compensate for failures in the formal syllabus. Why should that agency profit from my hard work to fix their problems? Surely, this is providing the agency with a distinct motivation NOT to fix the problems which they allow...? I wish I could make extra money for failing... it seems like easy money to me..
 
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Andy, sounds like you should teach for GUE . . . Actually, one of the things that GUE tech instructors have going for them is they KNOW the level of performance of their students ahead of time.

When I took my cavern class, we had three students. Two of us had tech passes from Fundies, and a Rec Triox cert from AG (which means something). The other poor young man was doing his first dives in doubles, and hadn't had his mask off since his open water class. There was a HUGE skills gap. The instructor just kept trying to teach each of us at his or her level, but he did not pass the man with the limited background and skills. I think it's very hard for instructors. We just had the same experience in MX, with two cavern classes run with students we led down there. Some of the students had a lot of training and strong backgrounds; others were much more challenged.

This is where GUE has it just plain right. You have to have a tech pass from Fundies to go on. A tech pass from Fundies means something significant.
 
GUE created Fundies to solve the problem of divers showing up for entry level technical and cave courses unprepared. They needed to because the goal of the educational branch of the organization is to create divers capable of executing the goals of the exploration and conservation branches of the organization. The goal is not to sell courses. This is where they differ from most other agencies.

Outcomes usually are heavily influenced by the goals that you have going in.
 
This is where GUE has it just plain right. You have to have a tech pass from Fundies to go on. A tech pass from Fundies means something significant.

PADI has that opportunity, but doesn't take it. Where GUE have a single 'gateway' to tech, PADI have a series progression of prerequisite courses. All that needs to happen is for those courses to deliver results. That'd benefit potential tech students and those students content to remain as exemplary recreational divers.

The critical example is the PADI 'Deep Diver' course. This is a key prerequisite for technical diving. It is also, supposedly, a top-tier recreational course. As it stands, the course delivers very little. It doesn't 'prime' for technical diving, neither does it offer any sophistication or assurance of diving skill for deep recreational divers. It is often cited as a 'waste of time', almost a 'bureaucratic' stepping stone simply to attain a piece of plastic that allows the holder to satisfy dive operator requirements for deeper dives.

Just my opinion, but the performance requirements for the entire 'Deep Diver' course could easily be condensed down into a single dive. The narc test, color change, compression of objects, emergency deco simulation etc... all done on dive #1 at 100ft. That'd provide a meaningful experience on AOW also. It'd then leave the remainder of the course available for genuinely beneficial deep dive training.

Rather than writing a novel course to mimic Fundies... or having instructors write distinctive courses to cover the gap (which shouldn't exist anyway...) the Deep Diver course could be reconstructed to provide the results that it should deliver. It'd make a very fine 'gateway' to technical and/or tecreational diving.

To do so, it'd need some tangible performance standards, especially in relation to core diving skills. It'd need some precision dive planning and gas management. It'd need some gas redundancy. It'd need some team skills and communications. It'd need some meaningful emergency protocols and contingencies.

Would anyone disagree that deep (100-130ft) recreational divers shouldn't possess the skill-set and competencies outline above?

Would anyone disagree that prospective technical students wouldn't benefit from such a training 'gateway' on their route to tech?

I can't comment on the 'sales value' of such a course. PADI seem to model towards cheap/quick/convenient/undemanding training. However, there is a definite disconnect between that model and the subsequent demands of technical training. As the technical diving market expands for PADI, I'd suggest they need to look towards some reconfiguration of the 'prerequisites'. You can't dumb down the precursors and raise the bar for what follows.
 
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