A more specific scenario

[pcarlson1911]

I'm hoping you guys can help me make a decision as money does not yet grow on trees.

I also posted with the great lakes wrecking crew.

I need some help with a decision on a boat. I'll try to give you the background as simply as possible.

My goal is to be able to travel around the Great Lakes and dive in the summers. I'm a teacher, so I have the time. Many charters are only running weekend trips so it isn't convienient to dive charters only. In addition, I enjoy the research and preperation of diving on our own.

We have been looking for a suitable Great Lakes dive boat to meet these goals and along the way, we have been borrowing my brother in law's brand new17.5 ski boat. It is suitable for the two of us to dive off of and we have taken it as far as 17 miles off shore in good weather.

We found a Baha Cruiser 200 Fisherman for sale for a reasonable price. The three extra feet aren't as attractive as my percieved performance improvement in larger waves.

My brother and law saw that we were seriously looking at a boat and he said don't do it. You can burrow our boat anytime you want to dive anywhere you want. If you want to take it for two weeks to dive the UP take it for two weeks to dive the UP. He only uses that boat one week a summer.

This is a great offer, except, the boat doesn't handle well in waves.

What is the wave height on a decent day on the other Great Lakes. Erie seems to have a good number of 2 feet or less days in the summer. Are the other 4 the same, or are michigan and Superior typically bigger?

Finally, am I going to see that much of a difference between the 20 foot and the 17.5 foot. Is the hull design going to work that much better?

I tried posting in the boat forum, without much luck.

Let me know what you think!
pc

 

[Nemrod]

I now very little about the Great Lakes, been out there twice. I do know that what your calling a 17.5 ski boat is not likely much of a boat. A good center console of 17 to 20 feet is a way diifferent animal from your "ski boat". You could also look at cuddy cabin type boats as well. A boat built built for blue water even if it is a small boat is way more boat than a "ski boat."

I assume your looking used so I suggest a Montauk 17 footer from Boston Whaler or in a new boat their brand new Montauk 190 (19 feet). I am always recommending Boston Whalers only because I am familiar with them. There are plenty of quality 17 to 22 foot center console and cuddy type boats to choose from other than the "Unsinkable Legend" but--alas--few are quite as unsinkable as the Boston Whaler. That said, any boat can capsize and regardless of how well it may float--your still wet. But, I should point out, Boston Whalers, most, self bail, even with the plug pulled will not sink or hardly take on water and even when green water comes over the bow or stern they shed it like a duck. Your 17.5 ski boat is a future dive site. Good luck. N

 

[pcarlson1911]

I like the whaters, and my17.5 wouldhardly be a blip on the ff!

 

[Nemrod]

Unfortunately, fiberglass is relatively acoustically transparent and does not show well on sonar!!!!!!!!!!!

Serious, look at what you want from the boat, it sounds like you plan on towing like me so that alone restricts the size of the boat. Look at boats, study them, see how they are contructed, make an educated choice.

Not all boats are built the same way, there is more than one way to build a junk boat and there is more than one way to build a quality boat. Avoid boats that are built of an outer glass shell, finsihed out with wooden stringers and then cheap AC(exterior glue) ply interior covered with pretty carpet and vinyl. They quickly become rotting eyesores and there are several well known brands that are very popular to price point concious consumers that are built exactly that way. DO NOT BUY ONE. What you want is single piece inner and outer hull with composite or foam structure between the inner and outer fiberglass hulls and as little wood as possible. Some quality boats still use wood for anchor points, hard points and transom--laminated in glass. More progressive quality builders have gone to nearly full composite--no wood constuction. BW for example, single piece inner and outer hull--one piece unibond---foam filled under pressure---still uses some wood and phenolic for hard points and transom. Nonetheless, BW boats are exceedingly valued for their longevity and ruggedness, Edgewater is another similar boat, there are others that use full glass liners and bonded decks. Yes, some boats calk the top to the bottom and then attach it with screws and a metal molding with a rubber insert. Imagine that after several years of smashing through waves!!!

Good luck, don't buy on an impulse because some slick fellow says it is a good deal.
N

 

[Scubydoo713]

I have a 24' SeaRay Laguna, with twin outboards, that I use exclusively on the Great Lakes. While it is a seaworthy boat, I don't take it out in 3-4 footers. It just rides too rough. That's not to say that I haven't been caught in 3-4 footers, since wind and waves can come up rather quickly on the Great Lakes. Lots of days, 2-4' waves are common and are diveable, if you have the proper boat to handle them. I don't have a particular boat in mind, but would suggest that if you're going to be off shore (in the 17 mile range that you mentioned), that you have a 22- 24' boat with twin engines(the faster, the better to outrun storms) and with 2 engines, if 1 quits, you can almost always limp home on 1. Much bigger than a 24' and you're getting into weight and beam restrictions, as far as a tow vehicle goes. You didn't mention what you were going to use to haul your boat, but in the 22-24' range, you would be best served with a 1/2ton truck with 4 wheel drive. Anything bigger than that and your looking at a 3/4 ton. Plus, the bigger the boat, the more it cost to tow it and the more difficult to launch and retrieve. Whatever boat you decide on, don't forget the safety gear and above all else, the vhf radio, preferably a fixed unit for the boat, and a handheld as backup. A must for offshore boating. A boat with a transom door is also preferable. Take your time and don't buy a boat based on price alone!
Good luck to you in your search and happy boating!

 

[captain]

I know the reputation of Whalers but I don't believe I would buy a used one several years old. I have yet to find a foam filled boat several years old without water saturated foam. Owners drill holes to mount things without following proper procedures to seal them and water will get in. Even with the best of efforts to prevent it it will still happen and once it is wet there is no way to dry it. If you buy 20 feet or under you are forced by USCG regulations to buy a foam filled boat. Over 20 feet foam is not required. Basicly I hate foam in boats, it soaks up water, it hides potential problems, it takes up space that could be used and it makes repairs and adding equiptment difficult. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Nemrod]

"it takes up space that could be used and it makes repairs and adding equiptment difficult. Just my 2 cents."

Yep, that part is true. I installed an Eagle/Lowrance set up in ours when I bought it and now I swapped it to the Humminbird 987c. There is no easy way to run cables on BW boats or similar boats. There is a rigging tunnel that runs through the center of the boat over the top of the 60 gallons fuel cell that requires fishing cables through and always leaving a tow line behind for next time--what a PITA!!!! I have been dragging wires through that thing for weeks and still have not yet had the courage to pull the new tranducer wire through there until I get more water time to ascertain that it functions to my satisfaction before dragging it through. If only I had a BayLiner---not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One good thing about older boats is you can drill holes in them with no guilt. New boats it is like pulling teeth, it is painful. And, if you have a BW or other foam filled boat--and in a BW the foam is structural---3M 5200 sealant will become your friend. Kinda like JB Weld is to farmers!

Yeah, I noticed that about the Great lakes, the water is darn rough, short, steep, sharp waves.

As in aviation the same in the marine world, there are the twin engine guys and the single engine guys. I am a single engine guy. One is enough to feed and house and having two only increases your likelyhood of MMF by a factor of two. Get SeaTow, it is cheaper. One good engine is worth a dozen that sorta run sometimes. Just me.

N

 

[Scubydoo713]

As in aviation the same in the marine world, there are the twin engine guys and the single engine guys. I am a single engine guy. One is enough to feed and house and having two only increases your likelyhood of MMF by a factor of two. Get SeaTow, it is cheaper. One good engine is worth a dozen that sorta run sometimes. Just me.

N[/QUOTE]

We could probably start a good forum on the pros & cons of single engine versus twin engines. Jack

 

[pcarlson1911]

The info is great guys. At this point in my life I am a price point consumer. I just relocated to be with my wife and took a paycut to do so, but quality of life has increased so I can't complain. I think this baha 200 fisherman that I'm looking at is a great comprimise. Small cuddy, walk around, open in the back, penta 130hp i/o. The problem is the dealership is firm at 10900 and NADA avg ret is 7100. We will see how firm they are in november.

pc

 

[Skull]

pc

I grew up in Erie Pa, I now live in San Diego. My experience with lake Erie has been there is no comparing 2-3 ft waves on the lake with 2-3 waves on the ocean. Its not the amplitude but the period which is going to predict how well any boat is going to preform on/in blue water. I've been out on the ocean here in 8- ft swells with 8 second intervals and had a relatively comfortable ride in my 21 ft cuddy. Conversely last summer I went Walleye fishing off of Harborcreek Pa( slightly north of the channel to the Erie Harbor) in 2-3 foot swells on a 30 ft/11 ft beam boat and was entirely uncomfortable ... because the waves were on a 4 second interval and coming from 2 directions. Lake Erie is/ can be down right dangerous in a matter of 15 minutes. I remember hanging out on Presque Isle in the middle of July bright blue skkies gazing west and see a black cloud over Canada ... within 20 min. we were in the middle of a thunderstorm with 5-6 ft waves beating the beach ...

Nemrod I believe has the answer ... get a Boston Whaler ... with an opening in the port side for entry and exit. The Navy Amphib command routinely auctions these crafts off ... I dove off one recently and can tell you by far it is a diving machine. 29ft enclosed CC with twin 225's.... overkill in the power plant considering the driving distance to the dive sights and the maint. costs.

Also what are you doing venturing 17-20 miles off shore in Lake Erie .... I wouldn't do it with a 40' Cabo ....