A little help with my Hogarthian bp/w please

[OMANDIVER]

@OMANDIVER why is a bcd less complicated than a bpw?

also you don't always have the choice of quarter turn back, many times the dive masters mess with it right before you jump in....

Because it’s so much easier to reach your valve...

 

[Zef]

I have no interest in turning my valve off underwater, but like I said earlier in this thread, there are situations where it could save my life if I were to make mistakes pre-dive.

Yeah...thats just a bunch of BS....see post #39.....if you are descending uncontrolably towards Davey Jone's locker after making a splash, while holding that last breath you took before jumping off the back of a boat then there are better things you should be doing than trying to figure out if your valve is turned off, such as:
1. Swimming towards your buddy
2. Swimming up to the surface
3. Not wasting time with your valve because if that is not the problem you are further up ****'s creek because you chose to check your valve than the other two....instead you should ditch your gear, at least your weights, and head up to the surface.
4. Rethink your buddy situation...if they are not near enough by you to respond to the emergency OR did not stick around at or just under the surface to ensure you were ok after splashing then you may want to choose a different partner to dive with next time.
5. Rethink if diving is for you....if your primary impulse is to reach for the valve after jumping in the water and finding that you can't breath, and you believe that is the answer to how to save your life, then you need to rethink recreational diving altogether and/or at at least your gear configuration because if you cant get to the surface after jumping in then you are dangerously over-weighted.

I keep reading throughout this thread the notion that being able to reach and manipulate the valve is a life saving techinique for the recreational diver using a single tank...given the list above, I just don't think that is sound reasoning.

-Z

 

[divad]

......

 

[divad]

Yeah...thats just a bunch of BS....see post #39 Z

Silly goose.

 

[Dan_P]

And for those who believe that it is a life saving technique when splashes and find that their valve is closed, perhaps those who have died did so because they were trying to figure out their valve, this scenario does not happen at 30 meters it happens close to the surface, perhaps they would have been better served by dropping their weights and swimming up?

Those that didn't certainly would. Tragically, stats show higher numbers of divers who didn't ditch the lead they were relying on as ditchable in an emergency, than one might expect.
A good final check before descending/sphlashing would have gone a long way, too, though. Including checking the valve by the diver.

But I don't understand why they'd need to drop their weight?
If they can't tread water on full lungs without ditching weight, then surely, something's off, right?

If they have no compressed air in their lungs their is no danger of DCS/embolism.

Unless they descend on the last breaths of a quarter-turned open valve, hold their last breath, then drop a heap of lead to rocket to the surface. It's a recipe for AGE.
Check out DAN's 2010 and 1016 Annual reports. Particularly AGE in 2010.

I can see this as a necessary skill for a solo diver, but solo divers are not the majority.

Indeed. I'm not one either. My take on things is definitely impacted by that, even down to my gear choices and configuration. So I should probably disclaim as much, in fairness. But I do feel the skill has utility to a buddy- or team diver as well, at the very least in terms of diver development.

Advocating that being able to reach and manipulate one's valve as a single tank recreational diver, diving in buddy teams, just seems like a fix for a problem that does not exist and already has a solution for it. There just does not seem to be a good reason for a diver to be holding their breath while sinking further away from the surface while trying to figure out IF it is their valve that is the problem....go up or go to your buddy and use their alternate air source.....anything else just smacks of a bit of a rediculous notion.

I am trying to understand the motivations con flow checks, which, effectively, this is. A diver reaching to their valve/s, confirm that they can be operated, and that they're in the right position.
Doing this allows the diver to catch early or redeem any snags, partial roll-off's, etc.

And it allows us to develop a foundation for the diver to progress into technical diving where opening and closing the valves is a standard exercise.

I fail to understand what the flipside to that, is - it's really not a complicated maneuver to square away in training when we're doing all the other work that relates to it (bouyancy, trim, propulsion, team, environment, equipment adjustment, etc.). It's not a particularly complicated skill in its own right.

In this case, I'm sure any instructor would catch the OPs crotch strap sits so tight it's holding his tank south, the rest is all diver technique- work.

 

[tbone1004]

Because it’s so much easier to reach your valve...

uhh what? that's ridiculous

 

[Zef]

And it allows us to develop a foundation for the diver to progress into technical diving where opening and closing the valves is a standard exercise.

You state this as if technical diving is the normal progression, it is not...while it has become increasingly popular over the past few years it is still at the niche end of the diving spectrum. There is no reason that anyone needs to develop competencies that are mainstays among tech divers before they decide to embark down that path.....there is no reason why they shouldn't either.

You and others are putting an emphasis on something as if it is a super important skill that all divers should be expected to know and execute, what I am saying is that while it is good to know it really is not as important as you make it out to be. There are other skills that deserve more attention especially when this is just one available option when one finds they have a non-functional air source immediately after entering the water.

Perhaps one should be already breathing hard off their tank while at the ready to jump off the boat...if so then when the DM messes with their valve they will know fairly quickly...but instead of acting prudent I see divers trying to save every tiny bit of air for down below.

I will agree with he notion that being able to access and manipulate ones valve on a single tank setup is good to know....but I disagree with any notion that it is an important or critical skill.

Beyond that we will have to agree to disagree.

-Z

 

[Dan_P]

You state this as if technical diving is the normal progression, it is not...while it has become increasingly popular over the past few years it is still at the niche end of the diving spectrum. There is no reason that anyone needs to develop competencies that are mainstays among tech divers before they decide to embark down that path.....there is no reason why they shouldn't either.

But it is.
Beyond recreatonal diving, the technical domain is pretty much the only option outside of the professional ranks if you include cave- and wreck under the same definition. In either case, they have heaps in common.
Developing divers from an up-down perspective allows a consistent progression that is scalable to any level, and my personal experience is it definitely makes a difference.

You and others are putting an emphasis on something as if it is a super important skill that all divers should be expected to know and execute, what I am saying is that while it is good to know it really is not as important as you make it out to be. There are other skills that deserve more attention especially when this is just one available option when one finds they have a non-functional air source immediately after entering the water.

I'm not saying Day 2 of the OWD-course should be about flow checks, hang OOG-training. Of course, there are much bigger fish to fry than this, and of course this is not something that should take hours on end during the course.
I think a natural way to deal with it, is during kit-up and preparatory checks. 1 minute of your time, done.
I think it's worth that, or more.

 

[tbone1004]

@Zef tell that to the people that have died because they couldn't do that... It's not a difficult skill, but it is largely equipment dependent on whether you can actually reach the valve or not

 

[Zef]

@Zef tell that to the people that have died because they couldn't do that... It's not a difficult skill, but it is largely equipment dependent on whether you can actually reach the valve or not

my stance is that it's not knowing how to reach and manipulate the valve that is the problem....I would water that those who have died because of this had other issues such as complacency to one degree or another and this is the thing that finally caught up with them. It is sad but just because someone dies does not necessarily mean it elevates in general importance. Like I said, a good skill to know but still not critical.