A deep systemic problem with diver ed?

[MikeFerrara]

My wife’s OW class…

I had been certified for almost a year. We had been seeing each other about six months and most of our dates started with her sitting in the car trying to stay warm while did a winter night dive before we went out. I was already a PADI rescue diver with several specialties and had been diving pretty much every weekend since being certified. My wife did private pool sessions with thee owner of the shop. When it came time for her OW dives the owner of the shop taught the first day (first two dives). Everything was pretty unremarkable. The divemasters were the same divers I dived with every weekend and I trusted them.

The second day the instructor who taught was a stand in who only taught for the shop occasionally. I hadn’t heard anything good about him and one of the DM’s that I trusted refused to assist with the class that day. Two classes were combined that day and if I remember right there were about 10 students. Skill demonstrations went very slow and divers got cold and ran low on air before it was over so the tour portion of the dive was skipped. On the second dive of the day the instructor organized things a little different. He decided that since the roadbed was so crowded with classes that he would take his class somewhere else. The roadbed has a gravel bottom and is the least silty place in the quarry. Some how divers became split up and things were very confusing. I stayed with my wife and her assigned buddy and none of us had a clue as to what was going on. He sat my wife and her buddy in the deep silt signaling all of us to stay put. There they sat. My wife was holding hands with her buddy and trying very hard to break me hand with her other hand. She stated later that had I not been there she would have freaked and nearly did anyway. About 15 minutes later the instructor came back and did some skills with them.

My wife was assigned to go on a tour with a DM that I knew well and trusted. I was asked to buddy up with one of the students who was to tour with the instructor. The vis was next to nothing and following the instructor all we could see was an occasional glimpse of his fin tips. Then…nothing…he and the rest of the group were gone. We stopped and waited thinking he would come back but after a while it became clear that wasn’t going to happen. I had trouble deciding what to do. I thought about surfacing but figured that there was a greater chance of the student having trouble doing a free ascent without a reference than just staying on the bottom where everything was going ok. We continued on and finally hit the roadbed. I guessed that the instructor would have followed it and I guessed what direction he would have went. I figured he was taking the class to the school bus. We caught up to the class a the bus. The instructor never had a clue that we were ever gone.

Every one was given a temporary certification card and went off happy little ignorant new divers.

A summer or two later that same instructor stood in to teach an advanced class while the owners went on a dive trip to Australia. While doing the AOW night dive in the very same quarry a student became separated from the class and was found later dead. The autopsy revealed no sign of heart attack or other medical problem. The diver apparently just spit out his reg and drown in 20 ft of water.

The daughter of this instructor’s girl friend stopped in my shop a few weeks ago. He moved out west someplace and is still teaching diving today.


Maybe the dead diver made choices as did my wife and myself but they were choices based on flawed information and misplaced trust. Maybe he could have prevented that death and maybe not but there were a bunch of us who seen it comming and knew that it was just a matter of time. The dive shop also knew how he taught. I wonder if any more of his student have been killed or injured. I have money that says they will be.

 

[Walter]

inter_alia,

"A lot of scubaboard members seem to have this idea that "I wasn't hazed enough, let's start hazing 'better'" attitude"

I have not seen anyone advocating hazing. Hazing is not a good way to teach.

Once upon a time, standards were high. Lots of skills were included in a typical beginner class that are no longer included in most classes today. Often those skills were presented in a "do it or wash out" manner. This is not teaching.

Many people saw this method as a problem. There were basically two approaches to eliminate the hazing.

One approach was to break the skills down into componets, teach those componets in a patient manner with demonstrations and lots of practice. When the componets were mastered, the more complex skill is put together. This approach allows a student to aquire skills in a method that is easy and low stress while gaining a sense of accomplishement and building self confidence.

The other approach is to simply not require skills preceived as too difficult.

Regardless of the approach, no one is advocating hazing.

 

[WJL]

Genesis once bubbled...

Those who advocate such a thing should consider that some people consider such advocacy to be awfully close to the line of treason.

And I'm sure in your history classes they provided instruction on the proper penalty - throughout history - for such an infraction of the public peace.

Karl,

I pretty much agree that governmental regulation of diving is unwarranted.

You are freaking me out, however, by suggesting that advocates in favor of it are somehow engaging in "treason" and that they should think about the corresponding penalty - a death sentence.

You might have trouble finding people to dive with if you explain to them that they may be subject to the death penalty if they disagree with you about politics.

 

[inter_alia]

Walter,
I suppose I was less than perspicuous when I mentioned "hazing" but I meant it in simile -- like, instead of just telling us how to clear our masks in chlorine, then in some open water somewhere once, maybe taking a mask off the student's face (as a way of teaching them a worst-case scenario) in open water is a better course.

I personally don't think it's a better course (although it could be fine-tuned I guess) but I was likening OW cert Lite (which is what people tend to complain about, "too easy to get a C-card," etc.) to an initiation. Like the members that came before just may bemoan the fact that these New Guys didn't know what to do when their mask fell off at a stupid safety stop.

I hope this is more clear, Walter. I didn't mean to insinuate actual hazing -- thanks for pointing that out, tho.

 

[Popeye]

Grajan once bubbled...


I really do not have the answer but I do believe that people are getting unnecessarily killed or injured because of a seriously flawed system. Unfortunately Mike may well be right - no-one that could make a difference really cares. Just keep the money coming in.

You're still missing my point.

Hundereds of thousands of divers are certified every year.

Of the hundred that die every year, around 35 of them have been diving less than a year.

And only a few of them die in an OW class.

What "serious flaws" in the system are you indicating?

Here's a bet I love to make.

Cite 5 diver deaths specifically related to "relaxed" OW standards in 2002.

Just five.

Like the guy that died in Gilboa early this month, OW training standards and the industry simply had nothing to do with this incident.

I don't read every thread here, but find us a recent diver death, and we'll prosecute it for cause.

Chances that it was related to training standards are almighty slim.

What changes in the "system" do you propose, what do you think they'll cost, and who should foot the bill?

 

[Genesis]

Five? Not a chance at meeting your challenge.

Never mind that its four times more likely that you will be killed driving your car to the boat as you will diving from it - yet we accept the deaths in the car without calling for ever-increasing "standards".

Truth is that this is nothing more than yet another power grab.

 

[wreckchick]

Let me throw another opinion into the mix here. I agree with everyone who says that governmental regulation is not warranted at this point. I also agree that there is a systemic flaw in diver education.

Whether or not the standards are adequate is irrelevant until whatever standards are in place are applied evenly from diver to diver. The way to get a C-card, in most agencies, is to perform the required skills AT LEAST ONE TIME. That's semi-ridiculous and is no guarantee that the student will ever be able to perform that exact skill later, under pressure. If someone can muster up the courage to do one mask removal and replacement while kneeling on the bottom, that skill is considered to be complete. If that same student gets a mask kicked off while in mid-water, what are the chances that he/she will be able to do it again with a shrug? This is where the instructor comes into play. Some instructors insure that the student can not only perform the skill but do it comfortably enough that it's not a problem and some instructors just make sure the student does it the one time for the check mark in the box.

The flaw is not with the standards, or with the lack of oversight it's with the latitude that the instructor has in his/her definition of a "completed" skill.

Now the question becomes; how does a student insure that the instructor has taught them the skill in a manner that will allow them to do it in a stressful situation? Is this an issue for the student to deal with independently or should there be increased pressure on the instructors to demand mastery? Or is there another suggestion?

Rachel

 

[Grajan]

Power grab by who?

I started this thread and I am just another diver. I have absolutely no connection to, or interest in, the diving industry. I do have a general interest in dysfunctional management systems.

As for connecting accidents with training standards; The trouble with fatalities is there is always a lack of real information particularly about the most important thing - what went on in the victim's head, but I don't think it would be very hard at all - there are always simplistic 'reasons' for an accident if you don't choose to look too deeply.

But - If you do a real root cause analysis - my guess is you will find that most accidents are initiated by a series of sometimes apparently innocuous bad decisions that cascade into a crisis. In most cases making one of those decisions differently will break the chain. That is what GOOD training should be all about, not just the mechanics.

The current sausage machine barely manages to address the mechanics much less deal with the subtleties of risk management and attitude.
--------------------------------------------

As an aside: There is a great little booklet in glider training called Accident Prevention Manual for Glider Pilots. There is hardly a word in there that would not be applicable to divers. some chapter headings:

1. Introduction to [pilot] judgement
2. Decision making concepts
3. Self assesment of hazardous thought patterns
4. Reinforcement through repetition
5. Antidotes for hazardous thoughts
6. Identifying and reducing stress

-------------------------------------------

As for the industry fix. It absolutely does not have to be government. The following would do a lot.

The major diving education bodies should get together to develop an improved and modernised set of training standards that they all agree to. They should then fund an independent body of examiners who audit training standards (and instructors)to make sure they are maintained. Compared with the billions flowing through this industry that would be peanuts and, done properly, make the world of difference.

Just a thought - but the reality is no-one really cares. Or we are all too macho to need it......

 

[Walter]

I believe a majority of SCUBA deaths can be traced to low standards. Confidence building skills have be abandoned by most agencies. Confidence building skills help to prevent panic. Panic is the biggest killer of divers.

 

[Laser]

double125's once bubbled...
The instructer still has the incurred obligation to train you to the best of your ability. If your abilty is not good enough a card should not be issued. If a improperly trained diver dies to lack of instructer ethics, IMHO it is the instructer that killed him.

Who would ever want to be an instructor under these circumstances?