A Better SPG?

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Yes, they do leak, I have had several. Then there is the annoying bubble that develops as a result and seems to always be right where I want to look…

Your comment brings something else to mind. I have never seen one go off, but there is a little blow-out plug in SPG housings in case there is an air leak — the housing could end up shrapnel otherwise. If that internal leak occurs in a fluid filled gauge, the blow out could resemble projectile vomiting!

Nothing dangerous, but sorta ugly. :wink:
 
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This and several other discussions gave me some ideas on an improved SPG and I would appreciate your comments.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/advanced-scuba-discussions/343217-better-spg.html#post5355256

"Comments?" Okay, but you're probably not going to like what I have to say. :)

Your ideas and design for a better, more accurate SPG I think are spot-on... And in seeing the other designs that I assume you created before, I know you could build an impressively beautiful piece that would function better than today's units that are available in the marketplace.

...However, like a lot of things scuba, I don't believe that your better, more accurate, and deeper-capable SPG is a solution for a problem that really exists. That is, today's simpler SPGs aren't particularly problematic. Sure, if you're going to 800 feet, the problem (possible failure at depth, a reading that may not be a totally accurate representative of available gas) may be exasperated and therefore an issue... But for almost any kind of diving (say, anything above a rational 300' or 400', the "inaccuracy" caused by ambient pressure and the worry of implosion is probably not the biggest concern. It's arugable that divers going to those extreme depths are even aware of these types of risk... Much less, the everyday diver going to 60 fsw.

I would much prefer to see an SPG with a more flexible bourdon tube... Which would be affected by pressure at depth, and therefore show you only the usable gas available in your tanks. Such a thing would also alleviate the risk of implosion of the bourdon tube... Which I'm not convinced is a real problem either, since I've never seen it happen. Maybe at 800 feet...

Add an oil-filled face, and the gauge would be very practical to just about any depth - circumventing the whole "depth rating" suggestion.

...But it's my understanding that Thermo's bourdon tubes are already somewhat flexible, which is to say that this problem has already been solved, and probably the reason why nobody seems to be experiencing SPG failures at depths around 500 feet.

...And while oil-filling the face would definitely make the SPG even more depth-tolerant, there's no sense in creating a fix for a problem that doesn't exist. If they're not blowing out on these dives as they are now, why make things more complicated?

If you're looking for a real problem to fix, address this one: Many divers fall out of the sport because they find themselves "married" to a local dive shop for gas fills. If the dive shop goes out of business (common today) or their local dive shop is a significant distance away, they often fall out of the sport due to the logistical complications of obtaining fills. If they don't own their own tanks, it's even worse, as doing one dive will take two trips to their distant, local dive shop - one to pick up tanks and one to return them.

A simple solution would be to create a cheap and easy fill station - one with a CFM of like 0.1. It could run on AC110v (household current), with comparatively small electric motors that would be quiet and run very cool. Filtration systems at such a low rate (as well as low temperature) could be very inexpensive, effective, and easy to maintain. The compressors might not even need oil, which would make them simple to maintain, portable, clean, and would not risk the contamination of the breathing gas. It wouldn't matter that it would take days to fill an AL80... Most people have to work anyway, and the bottom line would be that every weekend, they'd have cool, clean, healthy breathing gas without sucking up the entire weekend getting tanks.

Available accessories could be auto on/off electronics and "pigtail" fill whips that would allow a series of tanks to be connected to the whip rather that one at a time - so that the compressor fills two or four tanks by next weekend, not just one.

The market supports such a product in the $700 range, new... Can you develop something like that?

...Another product that I think could be built is a modified automotive shop air tool, hooked to a propeller. This device would attach to an AL80, and create a practical DPV. Avoiding today's electronics, offgassing batteries, sealing issues, and cost, this type of system would be comparatively cheap, simple, portable and powerful... And use as a fuel something that divers assumedly have a strong supply of: compressed gas. This would make a lot more sense than the batteries, electronics, reed switches, and sealed hulls that we're using now.

Lastly - and here's a no-brainer... I have an electronic toothbrush (SonicCare) that, when sitting on it's base, charges without any metal contacts on the bottom of the brush... It's too cool. Why not combine that and a wireless SD card to create an underwater camera system that does not require the user to repeatedly open and close their camera case? Between the price of underwater photo and video equipment, the maintenance of these items, and the risk taken every time the case is opened and resealed, underwater photography is a true pain in the neck. Such a camera - itself sealed rather than in a housing of some sort - would greatly simplify the entire process and would be worth a great deal on the market. If a dive shop and/or boat had WiFi internet access, photos could be on Flickr before the diver was even rinsed off. And maintaining the camera - an issue only because the diver's already got so much to maintain - would be as simple as dunking it in freshwater and setting it down on it's base (or mat).

Comparatively, addressing an SPG to make it "more accurate" doesn't seem to be a very fruitful endeavor... Even if you are successful in making something like that.
 
Your comment brings something else to mind. I have never seen one go off, but there is a little blow-out plug in SPG housings in case there is an air leak — the housing could end up shrapnel otherwise. If that internal leak occurs in a fluid filled gauge, the blow out could be resemble projectile vomiting!

Nothing dangerous, but sorta ugly. :wink:

I don't see why your design improvement could not still include a pressure relief.

Yes, ugly, but actually less dangerous I suppose. I was trying to get a piston from an aircraft engine cylinder and it would not come out. I was trying to get a fitting to fill the cylinder with water and then I was going to use air pressure to push it out. While I was looking for the fitting my co-worker just decided to put the air to it since I was taking so long, ka-pop, the piston flew out of the cylinder like a motar round and I swear it took limbs out of a pine tree 50 yards away. Fortunately Floyd was not looking down the barrel or it would have really been ugly. Fluid filled, yeah, that can be a good thing.

N
 
<snip>

If you're looking for a real problem to fix, address this one: Many divers fall out of the sport because they find themselves "married" to a local dive shop for gas fills. If the dive shop goes out of business (common today) or their local dive shop is a significant distance away, they often fall out of the sport due to the logistical complications of obtaining fills. If they don't own their own tanks, it's even worse, as doing one dive will take two trips to their distant, local dive shop - one to pick up tanks and one to return them.

A simple solution would be to create a cheap and easy fill station - one with a CFM of like 0.1. It could run on AC110v (household current), with comparatively small electric motors that would be quiet and run very cool. Filtration systems at such a low rate (as well as low temperature) could be very inexpensive, effective, and easy to maintain. The compressors might not even need oil, which would make them simple to maintain, portable, clean, and would not risk the contamination of the breathing gas. It wouldn't matter that it would take days to fill an AL80... Most people have to work anyway, and the bottom line would be that every weekend, they'd have cool, clean, healthy breathing gas without sucking up the entire weekend getting tanks.

Available accessories could be auto on/off electronics and "pigtail" fill whips that would allow a series of tanks to be connected to the whip rather that one at a time - so that the compressor fills two or four tanks by next weekend, not just one.

The market supports such a product in the $700 range, new... Can you develop something like that?


Somebody put this man in for the Nobel prize.

Something like that would be amazing, especially if one could find some cheap T bottles for banking. Run the compressor constantly and then just top off your tanks as needed with a transfill whip. You could keep it in your garage, and not have to worry about pissing off the neighbors. It'd be a somewhat steep initial investment in both money and time (especially when it comes to filling bank bottles at .1 SCFM----WHOA!!) but for lots of people it would pay dividends over a lifetime of diving.

And possibilities are endless! If it could be had with an o2-safe filter and you could get stored 02, brew your own Nitrox. That would bring the cost of Nitrox to the diver down to pennies on the dollar, compared to going to the LDS and such.

SeaJay, patent this idea and then contact Mako, Haskell, or somebody. Make yourself some money.

Peace,
Greg
 
"Comments?" Okay, but you're probably not going to like what I have to say. :) …

No worries. I enjoy the design review process and am not emotionally invested in this or any particular solution. It's not always easy to make things like that clear in writing compared to face-to-face.

It may have been more useful if this post was in http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/advanced-scuba-discussions/343217-better-spg.html#post5357025 so that other people in the discussion could see it too.

…Your ideas and design for a better, more accurate SPG I think are spot-on…

My proposal on the above link does not address increasing the accuracy — mostly working depth, a potentially more useful display, and reducing manufacturing costs.

… However, like a lot of things scuba, I don't believe that your better, more accurate, and deeper-capable SPG is a solution for a problem that really exists…

My primary interest in this project was roused by this post where SPG failures at depth were described:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/computers-gauges-watches-analyzers/340231-operating-depth-spg.html

My first thought was trying to interest manufacturers in machining their brass housing a little thicker, installing thicker glass, testing them, and printing the safe working depth on the face like diving watch manufacturers. This post got me thinking about how the SPG could display more useful information.

For those who have not had a change to read http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/advanced-scuba-discussions/343217-better-spg.html#post5357025, I veered off with a different concept, which may prove fatally flawed, but could evolve into a useful refinement. This is not something I have any interest in manufacturing or profiting from.

… That is, today's simpler SPGs aren't particularly problematic. Sure, if you're going to 800 feet, the problem (possible failure at depth, a reading that may not be a totally accurate representative of available gas) may be exasperated and therefore an issue... But for almost any kind of diving (say, anything above a rational 300' or 400', the "inaccuracy" caused by ambient pressure and the worry of implosion is probably not the biggest concern…

That is my biggest concern too. A better indication of usable gas would be gravy.

… I would much prefer to see an SPG with a more flexible bourdon tube... Which would be affected by pressure at depth, and therefore show you only the usable gas available in your tanks. Such a thing would also alleviate the risk of implosion of the bourdon tube... Which I'm not convinced is a real problem either, since I've never seen it happen. Maybe at 800 feet… Add an oil-filled face, and the gauge would be very practical to just about any depth - circumventing the whole "depth rating" suggestion…

I am a little confused. An SPG that compensates for over bottom pressure, indicates the adjustment for IP pressure (essentially indicating usable gas pressure) and fluid filled is what I describe in http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/advanced-scuba-discussions/343217-better-spg.html#post5357025.

Your mention of a fluid filled gauge in an earlier post caused me to consider the concept. I am not sure if it occurred to you, but a fluid filled housing that is pressure compensated to ambient will only display the tank pressure minus the pressure at depth. It will not longer display the same as a SPG with a pressure isolated Bourdon Tube.

… But it's my understanding that Thermo's bourdon tubes are already somewhat flexible, which is to say that this problem has already been solved, and probably the reason why nobody seems to be experiencing SPG failures at depths around 500 feet…

I must not be looking at the same Thermo (as in XS-Scuba???) gauge. Do you have any links? Is it the one on this page?

How a Submersible Pressure Gauge Works - DiveSports.com

How a Submersible Pressure Gauge Works - DiveSports.com

I don’t understand how increased flexibility will cause the Bourdon Tube to compensate for over bottom pressure. Bourdon Tubes straighten or coil in response to the pressure difference inside and outside of the tube. If the Bourdon Tube is in a housing that maintains 1 atmosphere, then it will not adjust according to depth.

… If you're looking for a real problem to fix, address this one: Many divers fall out of the sport because they find themselves "married" to a local dive shop for gas fills. If the dive shop goes out of business (common today) or their local dive shop is a significant distance away, they often fall out of the sport due to the logistical complications of obtaining fills. If they don't own their own tanks, it's even worse, as doing one dive will take two trips to their distant, local dive shop - one to pick up tanks and one to return them…

This one is more of a business infrastructure issue — not my circuit. You have a lot of good ideas. Scubaboard is probably the largest international audience of divers in the world. Why not post your ideas in a forum that has a broader spectrum of readers and see what you can stir up? Many times it is just a matter of getting to the right person.
 
I don't see why your design improvement could not still include a pressure relief.

It absolutely would have a pressure relief, just like all SPGs have blow out plugs now. My current "vision" is that the blow-out plug function could be combined with the pressure equalizing/sensing diaphragm or bellows to save manufacturing costs.

…Yes, ugly, but actually less dangerous I suppose. I was trying to get a piston from an aircraft engine cylinder and it would not come out. I was trying to get a fitting to fill the cylinder with water and then I was going to use air pressure to push it out. While I was looking for the fitting my co-worker just decided to put the air to it since I was taking so long, ka-pop, the piston flew out of the cylinder like a motar round and I swear it took limbs out of a pine tree 50 yards away. Fortunately Floyd was not looking down the barrel or it would have really been ugly. Fluid filled, yeah, that can be a good thing.

N

Nothing like small explosions the make a physics demonstrations memorable… glad nobody was injured.

My comment about ugly was if/when a blow-out plug on a fluid-filled gauge housing blew compared to an air filled. Oil shooting across the room through a small orifice would not please my bride! Makes a good case for a larger blow-out plug size though.
 
What is the best pressure checking device typically available in which to check bourdon tube SPG's accuracy? In the absence of any future improvement in technology I am in favor of picking through an LDS's inventory for the most accurate gauge. I am a very simple fellow...

It is called a, "dead weight tester." …

I doubt that many production SPGs ever see a dead weight tester, but they are very cool. In case anyone was wondering how the heck are gauge manufacturers sure they are right, here is an explanation of how dead weight testers work.

Process Pressure Measurement

They can be pretty pricy and are usually found in laboratories that calibrate and certify gauges for a fee. They are field units clear up to ultra-precision laboratory grade.

Tester, Pressure - Pressure Gauge Calibrator - Pressure and Vacuum Measuring - Test Instruments : Grainger Industrial Supply

Deadweight Testers - instrumart.com

Coincidentally I recently priced getting two 8", ¼% accuracy, 0-350 FSW Helicoid based gauges calibrated and re-certified, $65 each if I deliver to the lab.

Yeah, I know… more than anyone ever wanted to know :(
 
How about intergrating your computer with your spg? There are currently methods to do this with a hose or a wireless connect and they already do this.

Reliability and cost are the major problems. No doubt, it is a matter of time and they will be all electronic —along with our regulators. Ultimately, analog gauges will be collector's items like slide rules. I wonder how many computers actually allow for usable gas in their gas management calculations?
 
I am a little confused.

Lol... Probably not. :) You seem to know a lot about this stuff - and I'm more confident with your knowlege than my own when it comes to breaking open an SPG. All I know is that I'm not aware of any problems with them. You're the man that can build them. :)

Your mention of a fluid filled gauge in an earlier post caused me to consider the concept. I am not sure if it occurred to you, but a fluid filled housing that is pressure compensated to ambient will only display the tank pressure minus the pressure at depth. It will not longer display the same as a SPG with a pressure isolated Bourdon Tube.

That's a great thing! What else is important to the diver, practically speaking? All he needs to know is what he's got in that tank that is usable.

That the oil-filling would also alleviate any risk of implosion would be great, too... :)

I must not be looking at the same Thermo (as in XS-Scuba???) gauge. Do you have any links? Is it the one on this page?

Not sure - I don't have an XS Scuba gauge... But yeah, it's probably the same. I don't think that anyone else but Thermo makes a 2" brass & glass. From there, they're all rebadged.

Forget my "flexible bourdon tube" idea. No point when, a solution to the problem (if it can be established that there is a problem to be solved) would be an oil-filled gauge. Simple. :)

This one is more of a business infrastructure issue &#8212; not my circuit. You have a lot of good ideas. Scubaboard is probably the largest international audience of divers in the world. Why not post your ideas in a forum that has a broader spectrum of readers and see what you can stir up? Many times it is just a matter of getting to the right person.

Thanks, man! :) I'll post something soon...

I'm still working on the mini-compressor idea. Get this... I think it should work on a garden hose. No electricity at all... Just water. :) They shouldn't cost more than a few hundred bucks, and will probably pump cleaner gas than anything else. Just really slow - again, not a problem for the private diver, which is how it'll be marketed...

I dunno... I'll see if I can put one of these things together and see how it works before I go and spend the money for a patent... And making them...
 
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Lol... Probably not. :) You seem to know a lot about this stuff - and I'm more confident with your knowlege than my own when it comes to breaking open an SPG. All I know is that I'm not aware of any problems with them. You're the man that can build them. :) ...

Your comments are flattering. But "I are a diver" who has worked on some different projects, nothing more.

I either had some weird caching problem or just a brain fart, but I answered your post thinking it was on another thread. Too many projects, multi-tasking windows, and phone calls I guess. Sorry for the confusion.
:idk:
 

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