(5/01/05) Diver missing in Florida

[Island Dog]

A little perspective perhaps is in order.

Today ironically is the third year anniversary of the sinking of the Spiegel Grove. Divers have purchased over 10,000 Annual Medallions. Many of these divers have made several dives on the SG. Add the large number of divers who have not purchased the voluntary medallions and by my conservative estimate there have been over 50,000 dives on the SG.

To my recollection their have been two fatal accidents on the SG. During the same period of time we had at least one dive fatality on the Bibb and Duane and they have been visited much less than the SG druing the last three years.

In my humble opion, these numbers do not point out the need for any changes to existing dive operator protocols for the SG or any other of our wrecks.

 

[String]

If there was a plan in place perhaps that diver, and a few others, might not have perished? Yup, I'd call that a problem

and how do you know there ISNT a plan in place? I find it hard to believe that professional boat operators are allowed out with paying customers without having done risk assessments and incident plans. Hence my question to anyone american who operates a boat who can shed some light on this.

 

[pilot fish]

You are correct, you are posting mere speculation. If we are going to tolerate your speculation here, you should be prepared to be fair and tolerate others' speculation here, even if it runs contrary to your own biases and prejudices.

Excellent point, and very ture.

 

[pilot fish]

A little perspective perhaps is in order.

Today ironically is the third year anniversary of the sinking of the Spiegel Grove. Divers have purchased over 10,000 Annual Medallions. Many of these divers have made several dives on the SG. Add the large number of divers who have not purchased the voluntary medallions and by my conservative estimate there have been over 50,000 dives on the SG.

To my recollection their have been two fatal accidents on the SG. During the same period of time we had at least one dive fatality on the Bibb and Duane and they have been visited much less than the SG druing the last three years.

In my humble opion, these numbers do not point out the need for any changes to existing dive operator protocols for the SG or any other of our wrecks.

Is there a place that will provide that info? Are there fatality totals for the SG and does anyone know them. I think I heard it is more than 2 but don't know the number.

 

[Tom Winters]

Now, over here any professional boat operator has to comply with Health and Safety exec. rules. Amongst the tons of regulations are contingency plans. They have to have risk assessments, plans-of-action and pre-written responses to incidents. These have to be available for inspection. Anyone diving professionally (so DM,instructor) also has to obey HSE regulations and do similar.
Although amateur even i am expected to have a risk assessment and incident plan for a dive site if in charge.
Im assuming the USA has a similar regulatory body (is it OSHE?) that governs health and safety and so on.
Can anyone who knows about these things or operates a boat professionally confirm or deny this? If it IS the case then can they confirm/deny that boat operators are expected to have risk assessed and have incident response plans ? If they dont have to then maybe PF has a point. If they do then im afraid his argument is dead in the water.

String - you guys do recreational dive ops over there differently than over here. Here USCG licensing entails passing requirements for a given tonnage and not necesaarily a specific usage like diving, fishing, crabbing, towing. A lot of this stems from the lobbying by commercial fishing interests not to have to adhere to a lot of OSHA regulations. Any legislation that gets passed for safety purposes is usually the result of a nasty accident or loss of life.
The insurance companies that underwrite dive boats do not mandate much more specific requirements than the Coast Coast requires on a given vessel's Certificate of Inspection (COI). Vessels of any size taking 6 or fewer passengers are exempt from most of the COI strictures since they are considered uninspected vessels.
Dive boats that have aggressive rescue plans and what-ifs covered are doing this for themselves and not in response to any outside agency response. Everyone defers to the Coast Guard, and I have to tell you, meeting the Coast Guard requirements on a an inspected vessel while you're trying to keep a business afloat can be a little tough sometimes.
The idea is that if a given vessel meets Coast Guard requirements for its intended purpose of operation, then it can deal with any emergency that comes up.
In the Navy, drills are done all the time to maintain readiness. When I drove civilian dive boats, I used to have my customers help start things out by simulating being bent or having a heart attack. This met our USCG crew training requirements and kept my guys on their toes.
It's been a few years since I last drove professionally. Since then, the Coast Guard instituted new STCW (Standards of Training, Certification, & Watchkeeping) requirements, but as far as I know, none of these are tailored directly at dive boats which are a miniscule part at best of the American commercial vessel industry.

 

[Island Dog]

Sting,

Dive boats in US are handled a little bit differently. The USCG inspects for boating issues such as proper safety equipment (PFD, throw rings, fire extinquishers, flares, radios, life rafts, first aid kit, etc) and for procedures such as man-over-board, fires, taking on water, etc. The USCG also mandates the size and responsibilities of the captain and crew.

In my case we are a PADI Five Star Facility and they also require boats to have O2 on board and the crew to be O2 trained.

We teach several rescue diver classes each year and they give us an opportunity to practice emergency scenarios on our boats in real life situations.

 

[pilot fish]

and how do you know there ISNT a plan in place? I find it hard to believe that professional boat operators are allowed out with paying customers without having done risk assessments and incident plans. Hence my question to anyone american who operates a boat who can shed some light on this.

Allow me to walk you through this, String. Diver signals distress at mooring ball, boat Capt says he told him to stay put and he'd get to him when he could. The distress of the diver was immeadiate, since he went off the mooring ball, he could not wait for the boat Capt?, and sunk below and died . That does not sound like anything was in place for that type of incident.

 

[RonFrank]

Is there a place that will provide that info? Are there fatality totals for the SG and does anyone know them. I think I heard it is more than 2 but don't know the number.

As of March 23rd, 2005, there had been two scuba deaths total in FL, according to an article in the cyber diver news network.

"It was the second scuba diving fatality in Florida this year. Lawrence Thurman, 60, died while wreck diving on the Duane."

So this was number three, and the first this year on the Grove.

 

[pilot fish]

Sting,

Dive boats in US are handled a little bit differently. The USCG inspects for boating issues such as proper safety equipment (PFD, throw rings, fire extinquishers, flares, radios, life rafts, first aid kit, etc) and for procedures such as man-over-board, fires, taking on water, etc. The USCG also mandates the size and responsibilities of the captain and crew.

In my case we are a PADI Five Star Facility and they also require boats to have O2 on board and the crew to be O2 trained.

Does anyone know if the Capt of the Dive boat at least attempted to get a flotation ring close to the diver?

 

[Island Dog]

Pilot Fish...I see that you are going to Belize this year. I have been to Belize several times and I will stack up the professionalism and preparedness of the the dive ops in the Upper Keys against operators in Belize anytime.

If the situation on the SG concerns you...maybe you should stay home.