(5/01/05) Diver missing in Florida

[MoonWrasse]

How do you know that if that horse is dead? Who seez that the coroner's report is accurate? What kind of bat is used? .... sorry, just got into the spirit of the thread.

Looks like he's giving the horse a massage to me

Anyway, I agree about what you said regarding how people communicate differently from different parts of this big country, as well as outside of it. No need for a shove fest here - let's not act like parents at a school sporting event (one of the local coaches of a HS girls rugby team tried to kill the other coach during a game nearby yesterday 'cause he didn't like the ref's call).

eepwalla

 

[H2Andy]

actually, that doesn't look like an anatomically correct horse to me

in fact, i wouldn't be surprised if the rendering is inteded to . . . render
the (now extinct) species Hippidon, which, while a cousin to the
Equus family, was not directly linked to the modern horse (either Old or
New World species)

or, seeing as Hippidon went extinct about 4 million years ago, maybe the
image is meant to be that of a Equus hemionus, the desert-adapted onagers of
Asia & the Mideast, including the kiang

also, whatever the thing is, it is clearly alive. AS INDICATED by the splurting blood
which emanates from the blows. clearly, if the beast were dead, the blood would
have coagulated and thus any spurting would be out of the question.

at best, we can conclude from the image that someone (of identity unknown,
but probably someone of Caucassian origin, with a gene for baldness in the family)
is striking some sort of animal related to the horse, with what appears to be
a baseball bat, while the horse-like animal is lying on the floor, perhaps
quite close to giving up the ghost, but not quite there yet.

 

[DiveGolfSki]

Looks like he's giving the horse a massage to me

Anyway, I agree about what you said regarding how people communicate differently from different parts of this big country, as well as outside of it. No need for a shove fest here - let's not act like parents at a school sporting event (one of the local coaches of a HS girls rugby team tried to kill the other coach during a game nearby yesterday 'cause he didn't like the ref's call).

eepwalla

That looks like my last massage! :eyemouth:

 

[pilot fish]

DennisS, not to defend PF but PF hasn't "point blank" stated that anyone is lying. He's questioning authority figures (is this a Marine thing) as he's entitled to do?

Maybe it's because he, like me, is from NYC ... wait a minute that only works for people from Missouri.

Thanks, cmg, for helping to clarify [ not defending me ] what I actually said. NO. I'm not questioning authority, per se, but just leaving an open mind as to what was said to him at the mooring ball. I was told to swim a 100 ft against the current, in 5 ft chop by a boat Capt while diving the USS Spiegel Grove so it is possible that the wrong advice was given to the diver. Possible, I said, since we don't know. It is EQUALLY possible he was given the correct advice by the Capt.

 

[MoonWrasse]

actually, that doesn't look like an anatomically correct horse to me

Hmmm, you're right - by the scale it looks like a big dog.

in fact, i wouldn't be surprised if the rendering is inteded to . . . render
the (now extinct) species Hippidon, which, while a cousin to the
Equus family, was not directly linked to the modern horse (either Old or
New World species)

or, seeing as Hippidon went extinct about 4 million years ago, maybe the
image is meant to be that of a Equus hemionus, the desert-adapted onagers of
Asia & the Mideast, including the kiang

also, whatever the thing is, it is clearly alive. AS INDICATED by the splurting blood
which emanates from the blows. clearly, if the beast were dead, the blood would
have coagulated and thus any spurting would be out of the question.

at best, we can conclude from the image that someone (of identity unknown,
but probably someone of Caucassian origin, with a gene for baldness in the family)
is striking some sort of animal related to the horse, with what appears to be
a baseball bat, while the horse-like animal is lying on the floor, perhaps
quite close to giving up the ghost, but not quite there yet.

Nah, he could be asian. Many asian guys also lose their hair. Or a samurai, they shaved their heads like that.

So, maybe he's just tenderizing the beast

 

[Tom Winters]

2) "The Captain should have either thrown a line and ball or swam over to aid the victim. " I was not on the scene when the accident occured but I did take 4 divers to the Grove that morning. Wind, sea, and current conditions did not appreciably change from the morning to afternoon. I was in fact tied up to Ball #5 and I know how far it would have been to throw a line to or swim over to Ball #3. If Tom Winters can do either he is a better Captain than I or anyone I know. This does not even address the fact that it is against USCG regs for the Captain to leave the boat. Tom Winters says he does it regularly but in my opinion he endangers the rest of his divers everytime he does.

I left my dive boat only a handful of times over a decade of daily driving to rescue divers in distress on the surface. Was it totally necessary for me to do that? Can't say - it was purely a judgement call each time I did it. If I had a divemaster onboard, they went.
You're totally right that it is completely against USCG regs for a captain to do something like that. But sometimes you have to do the right thing even in the face of regulation.
Hey, if the captain down there in Key Largo did everything that could be done to save the guy who died, more power to him. I never wanted to deal with diving fatalities so I did EVERYTHING in my power to prevent them, even when they were not my customers. When something like this happens, whether people want to admit it or not, everyone attached to that operation is a little tainted. The guys I knew who killed people were pariahs after that - they were kept on the books until an hour after their cases were settled in civil court and then they were both instantly fired. The instructor case took about a year to settle and the captain who left a beginner diver underwater was carried for about six months. A death or serious injury on your watch is devastating to the people involved emotionally as well as usually proving to be professionally fatal.
So when the guy surfaced, he was two balls over? That is a good long haul. Yelling anything that far to a panicked diver wouldn't accomplish too much. I've seen boats with rescue paddleboards strapped onboard, but I guess these guys didn't have anything like that.
You're an instructor down there and know more details than I do - are you satisfied with how things were handled there?

 

[my1ocean]

A hero ain't nothin' but a sandwich.

 

[DiveGolfSki]

...at best, we can conclude from the image that someone (of identity unknown,
but probably someone of Caucassian origin, with a gene for baldness in the family)

Hey, you got something against follicly challenged?!!!! :laughing: :58: :laughing: BaitedStorm will have something to say bout that!

PF, no problem ... just sit tight and let's see what comes out. If you read the local blogs though, they're pointing fingers at the rescue response people (slow response, unqualified divers, etc. etc.). Something political is going on since it appears the chief of Key Largo Volunteer Fire Rescue, Inc was involved in getting the Grove there and may have been responsilbe for its premature sinking ... or so they say. That place is like Peyton Place or, better yet, Desperate Housewives! :11:

 

[pilot fish]

The reason I question it is because when I dove the Spiegel Grove, [I posted this story, didn't you read it? it would give you a big clue why I'm not a 100% convinced of anything, at this point] I came up on the wrong line. My boat was a 100 ft away but I was told to swim to it by a boat Capt in 5 ft chop against the current. I did not know at that point that it was against the current. I followed the orders of the Capt but in one minuet of furious kicking I did not advance my position to the boat. I then went back to the wrong boat, down current, to be picked up. So, you see, sometimes you don't get the best of advice.

Yes, I would dive with Tom Winters any time. I would be honored.

There seem to be two issues that Pilot Fish and Tom Winters keep accusing the Captain of outrightly or disguised in quesitons.

1) Pilot Fish keeps implying that the Captain may have told the diver to swim over to the boat. The dive operator's standard protocol is to tell divers in the briefing that if they come up on the wrong ball to inflate their BC, stay put and wait until they can be picked up...and I have been told by several people on the dock that evening that the other three divers confirmed the Captain told them this in the briefing. The only two people who know for sure what happened on the surface is the Captain and the victim but why does Pilot Fish even suspect the Captain would go against his protocol and training?

2) "The Captain should have either thrown a line and ball or swam over to aid the victim. " I was not on the scene when the accident occured but I did take 4 divers to the Grove that morning. Wind, sea, and current conditions did not appreciably change from the morning to afternoon. I was in fact tied up to Ball #5 and I know how far it would have been to throw a line to or swim over to Ball #3. If Tom Winters can do either he is a better Captain than I or anyone I know. This does not even address the fact that it is against USCG regs for the Captain to leave the boat. Tom Winters says he does it regularly but in my opinion he endangers the rest of his divers everytime he does.

Maybe Pilot Fish should simply dive with Capt. Tom Winters all the time.

 

[pilot fish]

:34: Beats me. PF appears to geniunely concerned that a diver, on an advanced dive DIED. He wants to know if there was anything that could have prevented it AND prevent it from happening again.

Again, I'm not defending his position ....

Thank you for understanding my point. I think this accident might change the practice at this advanced site? I just think dive op's need a plan for this type of incident. It happens a lot. Keep in mind folks, we are not Navy Seals on an incursion, we are SPORT DIVERS.