(5/01/05) Diver missing in Florida

[pilot fish]

Some in this thread are blaming the crew without justification nor evidence of any wrong doing on their part.

I'll throw out a long shot, but it's a possiblity of what could happen, and then you tell me if the diver did something wrong.

1. Tank valve o-ring let's go or the yoke first stage is dislodged from the tank valve
2. Tank drains rapidly
3. Diver bolts for the surface from 100 fsw, buddy or not
4. Diver embolises
5. Diver is in no shape to do anything at the surface other than drown

or

1. Diver has a heart attack
2. Diver surfaces in bad shape
3. Diver is incapable of rational thought about procedure
4. Diver drowns

Did the boat do something wrong? Did the diver do something wrong other than swim away from a buddy?

When panic sets in at depth, things don't go according to PADI text. I doubt this diver was wearing any kind of redundant equipment, or had the training and experience to deal with equipment failures at depths beyond a capable CESA.

Who knows? Point is, we don't, so let's not point fingers at the boat crew. Start with the dive, the diver, and the causes of the accident, and not the people who may not have had time to assess the situation.

I'll do the what if, if you will too, OK?

1- Dive shops fault for faulty gear
2- ditto
3- diver's fault, if it wasn't O rigng related
4- see above
5- boat should try to get him

Or

1- God called him
2- boat should get him some way, or instruct soneone else to get him, diver or boat
3- divers fault
4- open to discussion about why

OK, Mempilot. My turn.

Who's fault is it if:

1- boat capt tells him to let go of buoy and swim to boat
2- capt tells him to hang on and wait till he can get to him then changes that order to swim to me
3-capt does not call for another boat to help out for 15 to 30 minutes
4-capt does nothing
5-capt could have gotten a line and floatation ring CLOSE to him
6- capt and crew did not realized how distressed he was.
7- buddy left him

By the way, it was reported in this thread, I don't remember the source, that he was ok at 30 ft on the wrong line.

 

[BIGSAGE136]

Those balls go under if the swells are big enough.

 

[DiveGolfSki]

Thanks. I didn't think you were at all. I just felt the article was incendiary for no reason. There are some political shenanigans here in Monroe county that I think this article may be playing up to.
I may consider contacting the author, but I'm not sure what purpose that would serve.

cheers.

Dont bother contacting the author, she may end up on this board eventually ... reporters usually find it.

 

[sharpenu]

From Wikipedia: "In its simplest form, Occam's Razor states that one should make no more assumptions than needed. When multiple explanations are available for a phenomenon, the simplest version is preferred. A charred tree on the ground could be caused by a landing alien ship or a lightning strike. According to Occam's Razor, the lightning strike is the preferred explanation as it requires the fewest assumptions."

The simplest? The diver was niether prepared or experienced enough to do a dive where minor problems add up to disaster. You can't expect the Capt of any boat to babysit the divers on the boat. I have seen divers ask the crew how long they should dive. He replies "dive your tables or computer." They say, "but we are paying you!"

The diver:

a) didn't have a buddy
b) didn't drop weights
c) didn't inflate BC
d) expecting the capt to overcome a, b and c is ridiculous. Maybe the aliens killed him

 

[my1ocean]

From Wikipedia: "In its simplest form, Occam's Razor states that one should make no more assumptions than needed. When multiple explanations are available for a phenomenon, the simplest version is preferred. A charred tree on the ground could be caused by a landing alien ship or a lightning strike. According to Occam's Razor, the lightning strike is the preferred explanation as it requires the fewest assumptions."

The simplest? The diver was niether prepared or experienced enough to do a dive where minor problems add up to disaster. You can't expect the Capt of any boat to babysit the divers on the boat. I have seen divers ask the crew how long they should dive. He replies "dive your tables or computer." They say, "but we are paying you!"

The diver:

a) didn't have a buddy
b) didn't drop weights
c) didn't inflate BC
d) expecting the capt to overcome a, b and c is ridiculous. Maybe the aliens killed him

Your assumption that he was not qualified for the dive does not agree with the Occam's Razor theory. ( This was his second dive of the day on the Grove. The first was completed without event. Conditions had not changed much between dives. There were still rough seas and current. )

 

[Squalus]

Your point is noted. However, I have seen the changes coming down the pipe. When an agency is moving toward online or take home dvd instruction, removing any explaination or valuable input from an experienced instructor, I feel quality may be waning. Basically, it seems that the role of an instructor will digress to that of just doing check out dives and that students have copied answers from a book.

Mentoring starts before you ever get in the water. In the tourist end of certifying divers, there are some practical time constraints. In most of the diving standards for certification it states that a diver be able to do a skill repeatedly, not necessarily comfortable or proficiently.

maybe we should move this to another thread, such as intructor to instructor.

We have not changed our stance on certification, yea the dvd's are nice touch because of the change in technology (VHS is going away). I would say it depends on who is doing the certification and if they are willing for the liability for certifying Jo'Bob to dive. Each instructor takes that risk when they do a basic OW course, I still stand IMHO. I do think and probably will get blazed on this, the tourist end of certifying divers needs to be re-vamped or tweaked.

 

[my1ocean]

We have not changed our stance on certification, yea the dvd's are nice touch because of the change in technology (VHS is going away). I would say it depends on who is doing the certification and if they are willing for the liability for certifying Jo'Bob to dive. Each instructor takes that risk when they do a basic OW course, I still stand IMHO. I do think and probably will get blazed on this, the tourist end of certifying divers needs to be re-vamped or tweaked.

You're soo right. The instructor can make all the difference in the world. I think my job will become more difficult with students arriving with no other experience than a DVD, expecting to jump in the pool with gear. I, of course, am coming from the tourist end of things where there are whispers of all classroom training being completed at home and only seeing an instructor for final approval of homework and test. I'm sure the military is more scrupulous in their training.

IMHO?

 

[String]

I'll do the what if, if you will too, OK?

1- Dive shops fault for faulty gear

Not really, O-rings just "go". Doesnt have to be faulty from the shop, doesnt have to be obviously damaged pre-dives, O-rings particulary on A-clamp can and do go.

2- ditto

See above

3- diver's fault, if it wasn't O rigng related

Not neccesarily. Kit malfunction, medical problem none of which directly his fault.

4- see above

5- boat should try to get him

It did. From the above news report the rescue response looked very good and sharp. If it was a heart attack forget it, probably dead before anyone could do anything.

1- boat capt tells him to let go of buoy and swim to boat

Depends what the problem was, if it was a heart attack or other medical incident nobodys fault. Drifting off a buoy is standard and safe dive practice.

2- capt tells him to hang on and wait till he can get to him then changes that order to swim to me

Nobodys fault, someone acts in a situation and adapts their actions for the dynamic situation.

3-capt does not call for another boat to help out for 15 to 30 minutes

Depends if it was confirmed a diver in distress who then sunk, its unclear from the above if that was the case. If it wasnt clear there was a distress incident then i dont see an issue.

4-capt does nothing

Define "nothing". He has a responsibility to other divers as well and could not do an action that could potentially endanger others.

5-capt could have gotten a line and floatation ring CLOSE to him

You try it some day, its not that easy and again if it was a medical issue like MI then forget it, no good.

6- capt and crew did not realized how distressed he was.

"Fog of war" situation. Depends if the diver was visibily signalling distress and so on.

7- buddy left him

Depends if left deliberately or separated by accident. The former isnt excusable, the latter is a fact of life - it happens for various reason. If this person bolted from 130ft you wouldnt expect a buddy to follow him and endanger himself. Again, if it was a heart attack or medical problem a buddy being there would make no difference at all. First rule of rescue is do NOT endanger yourself in the process.

By the way, it was reported in this thread, I don't remember the source, that he was ok at 30 ft on the wrong line.

From what ive read on this site surface currents tend to be stronger at shallow depths. The crazy flag-flying due to anchored boats in currents would take effort. More chance of a heart attack in that sort of situation than others.

I cant work out why you're determined to blame someone when no clear facts are known. For all we know this could have been one of the most common diving deaths - heart attack in which case none of the above matters. Things arent always black and white.

 

[String]

I have read enough to realize that a diver died that should not have.

and how on earth do you know that? You know what killed him? You KNOW it could have been prevented?

I've also read enough to know that a diver reached the surface, signaled the boat that he was in distress and then sank below the surface and died.

This does NOT make it preventable. Have you ever tried handling a boat of that size and mooring/unmooring and moving around at slow speed? Have you ever tried navigating an area with divers in the water with turning props? Have you ever had to cover a boat with other divers in the water when another appears some distance away needing help? Its far from easy and the wrong move can endanger everyone else as well as the initial victim. What you wrote above in no way says it could have been prevented.

I don't know why. Do you?

Contradicted yourself there, you KNOW it could have been prevented then "dont know why" on critical aspects of the incident.

You might also reread some of my posts that state, I understand why a boat would not start the engines while divers were still uw. You might want to read a bit more of this thread before you attack me and accuse me. Thanks

It seems you are desperate to blame someone/anyone for an incident that may well have been totally beyond help. The post-mortum report isnt in. A cause of death isnt known. You are making claims even the officials involved arent jumping to.

 

[MoonWrasse]

I don't see where PilotFish is wanting to "blame someone" but rather try to understand and make suggestions as to how we as a group can better mitigate risks, which should be the goal of all divers, right?

I really don't understand why some posters here feel so threatened by that concept.