(5/01/05) Diver missing in Florida

[pilot fish]

That sounds about right - they had one minute to do something. No matter what the capain was yelling to him, the diver was not responding.
Yup - the diver did a whole bunch of wrong things, any one of which could have killed him. Doing all those things just make his fate all the more certain. So what do you do - form a discussion group in the boat, discuss his lack of skills, and watch him drown?
So there was a 60 second window of opportunity to get to the guy. I guarantee you that no matter how badly he was panicked, without a weight belt in a manually-inflated bc with a +4.4 empty aluminum tank , and a wetsuit on, that guy is floating until you pull him out of the water.
It's entirely possible that nothing would have saved the diver - it's a tough swim in a situation like that. You pretty much have to be ready to go - either fin up and get moving or launch a rescue longboard - you have to get your butt in gear PDQ or you're wasting your time.
For all I know, the diver ran into trouble at depth and died from something not related to the dive at all - sometimes your number just plain comes up. But it sure sounds like the cause-of-death will come in with drowning.
But nothing got done since no one went after the guy during that single minute.
Been there, done that.
The guy(s) in the boat were there, didn't do that.
I personally knew two industry people who separately killed customers - one was an instructor; the other was a captain. Both of them were competent at their occupations and had worked at their positions for years; they just managed at least one time to screw up.
If a customer drops dead from a heart attack or something like that, hey stuff like that happens; and sometimes diving situations arise that cause fatalities. It's the nature of the sport.
But geez - this guy was on the surface and panicked out of his gourd. Sure kinda sounds saveable to me.

The one minute at the surface is based on who's account? It's very possible he was at the surface longer, isn't it - 5 to 10 minutes? We also don't know EXACTLY what the Capt yelled to him, or if he yelled one thing to him and then several minutes later told him something else. We just don't know.

You raise good questions Tom.

 

[my1ocean]

We prepare to have the boat gone because moorings break in rough seas and what not but the boat should not leave intentionally EVER not even for a diver in trouble. Chase baots or surface support with scooters might make sense in some situations but divers then need to realize that they will be paying for the extra crew and equipment.

There are opperations in the Keys that tell diver's before they splash that if there is a problem the boat may leave to pick up a distressed diver. If a diver surfaces on a line, stay on that line. If a diver surfaces away from a line, stay on the surface and you will be picked up. The reason.... as mentioned before in this thread, it is much easier on a six pac boat to maneuver and pick up a diver that has gotten away from the group. This method has proven a life saver on many instances.

Each dive on the SG is different. The captain and divers must agree on and follow a plan of action should something go wrong. Captains who regularly go to the SG have a good idea of what can change and how fast. Most divers don't have a problem sticking to the plan until something goes wrong. When things go wrong all bets are off on what a diver will do to save his hide and as I said earlier, they usually do not listen to direction from the boat.

This diver was an advanced diver and was said to be very competent by one of the group diving with him.

 

[my1ocean]

I don’t know dive boat captions in particular.

But persons used to needing to account for events, actions ect like what they did in a situation are good at noting time.

One good ‘war story’ from someone else about providing detailed information (ie Incident Report) that included: at approximately, around 10 minutes later, it must have been, couldn’t have been any longer than, I think it was or making up timelines conflicting with other witnesses and getting reamed in court or by regulatory agencies makes it quickly become automatic to note time of events and actions. And if they want their accounting to be ‘trusted’ in the interest of liability.

Thank you for making that point. It is indeed a skill dive boat opperators develop. Most will know exactly when to expect people back aboard whithout looking at their watch. And most will know exactly where there divers are by looking at their bubbles. This would not have been possible on a rough day like it was.

 

[ReefGuy]

Possibly because the investigation is not complete?

The silence is deafening. Whats with the shy?

 

[my1ocean]

They seperate because they aren't any good at staying together. What else aren't they any good at? I'm not saying the answer is to say "to hell with them" but niether is the answer for divers to think that some one is going to be able to jump in the water and save them or worse, that they'll never run into trouble in the first place.

A cab driver can't ensure you'll get good food when he drops you off and a boat crew can't insure your safety when you dive.

I must concede that the quality of divers seems to be declining. That may be a new thread to start. Methods of training from some of the biggest dive training agencies seem to be helping in the production of less that confident divers.

 

[mempilot]

Tom,

Your post has a lot of assumption, speculation, and crystal ball in it:

"That sounds about right...", "The diver did...", "...watch him drown?", "...there was a 60 second window of opportunity to get to the guy.", "It's entirely possible...", "For all I know...", "...nothing got done...", etc...

Yet, you are so quick to condemn the boat crew, even though none of the information in this thread is an actual account of what really happened.

What if the investigation identifies an OOA at depth and a subsequent rapid ascent to the surface causing an embolism? What if the diver makes it to the surface in really bad shape, but without any real witts to do the right things to stay bouyant? ie drop weights, orally inflate, properly communicate with waiving arms that there is a problem

Yes, what if's.

Why point fingers in this thread at anyone right now, before an actually diagnosis of the events is revealed?

If you are wrong, you've done an injustice to that operation. Wear the shoes and see if you'd enjoy the types of posts being thrown out here with a total disregard for what may have actually happened.

 

[Squalus]

I must concede that the quality of divers seems to be declining. That may be a new thread to start. Methods of training from some of the biggest dive training agencies seem to be helping in the production of less that confident divers.

I beg to differ, it is not the agency that is to blame. They may be great in class, nothing giving an instructor to red flag them. When they get their certification that is when they need to be mentored. Confidence is brought about by education and experience. Divers make a decission to dive and have the right to bag a dive if they do not feel confident to do an advanced dive.

 

[pilot fish]

Tom,

Your post has a lot of assumption, speculation, and crystal ball in it:

"That sounds about right...", "The diver did...", "...watch him drown?", "...there was a 60 second window of opportunity to get to the guy.", "It's entirely possible...", "For all I know...", "...nothing got done...", etc...

Yet, you are so quick to condemn the boat crew, even though none of the information in this thread is an actual account of what really happened.

What if the investigation identifies an OOA at depth and a subsequent rapid ascent to the surface causing an embolism? What if the diver makes it to the surface in really bad shape, but without any real witts to do the right things to stay bouyant? ie drop weights, orally inflate, properly communicate with waiving arms that there is a problem

Yes, what if's.

Why point fingers in this thread at anyone right now, before an actually diagnosis of the events is revealed?

If you are wrong, you've done an injustice to that operation. Wear the shoes and see if you'd enjoy the types of posts being thrown out here with a total disregard for what may have actually happened.

"Yup - the diver did a whole bunch of wrong things, any one of which could have killed him. Doing all those things just make his fate all the more certain" ]]]]Tom Winters

Hi Mempilot. This is what I understood, TW to say. My take on his post is he's wonder about everything, as we all are, and examining different things.

 

[DiveGolfSki]

For those who are interested here's a follow up story:

Could diver have been saved?


BY ANN HENSON, Staff Writer
Posted-Friday, May 6, 2005 1:09 PM EDT






Could a change in protocol have saved a scuba diver who died last weekend while diving the Spiegel Grove?

A team investigating the incident may answer this and other questions surrounding the death.

But one fact is clear - no one was underwater looking for the victim until two hours after the call for help was made.

Tarik A. Khair-el-din, 44, of Indiatlantic, died as he was diving the Spiegel Grove on Saturday, April 30.


According to Islamorada Coast Guard Commander Dennis Zecca, the Coast Guard followed protocol after getting the call at about 2:50 p.m.

"We launched our rescue boat within five minutes of the call," he said.

"We had aircraft in the area and they were on scene within six minutes."




He said the state Fish and Wildlife Commission was notified and arrived eight minutes after the call.

"We are the surface rescue," Zecca said. "We don't do underwater rescue."

The county was also notified, but the Monroe County Sheriff's Office was unable to provide air support or a dive team.




The head of the dive team was out kayaking on his day off.

"Two hours went by and a follow-up call was made to the county," but this time to conduct an underwater search for a body, Zecca said.

Becky Herrin, spokeswoman for the Sheriff's Office, said both of the sheriff's helicopters were down that day, but she didn't know why.




"The dive team was in the process of assembling when the Key Largo team responded," she said.

"We are not a rapid-response team, like Key Largo Fire Rescue," she said.

"We'll do it if we can and on occasion we can help. Primarily, we are a search-and-recovery team."




The Coast Guard official called Chief Sergio Garcia of the Key Largo Volunteer Department at 5 p.m.

Garcia said his team made it to the Spiegel Grove in 19 minutes.

"They found the diver in deep water at 6:08 p.m." he said, about three hours after the initial call.

Garcia said he didn't know if the diver could have been saved if the Key Largo crew was called initially.

"We won't know that until the autopsy report is back," he said.

"If he had a heart attack and went down," he most likely could not have been saved, he said.

"But we don't know when he went down and for how long."

Dr. Michael Hunter, Monroe County Medical Examiner, said the cause of death was drowning and the victim died very soon after he went down because he was still wearing a weight belt.

However, a final answer through extensive toxicology and other testing will take weeks.

Rob Bleser, who heads the Key Largo dive team, was at his dive shop when Garcia notified him.

Bleser said that for this type of search, a technical diver is needed, especially if the lost diver was still inside the ship.

Two of Bleser's instructors have technical diving certificates and are working on becoming members of the dive team.

"I just took the two guys who were certified to do this," he said.

Other divers in the area were gearing up to head out to the Spiegel Grove, but Bleser's team found the diver nearly immediately upon entering the water.

"They did a superb job," Bleser said. "We are satisfied that we could bring this to closure rather than extending the search to the next day."

Zecca said that waves that day ranged 4-7 feet and the current was running very fast.

"Only experienced divers should be out under those conditions," he said.

According to police reports, Khair-el-din was diving off of It's A Dive.

He surfaced at the wrong mooring ball and signaled to dive captain Jason Hill that he was in trouble.

"Hill advised the victim to stay put until the other divers were on the boat," the report stated.

However, Khair-el-din was pulled off the mooring ball by the current and began to swim for the boat.

Hill's boat left its mooring to find the victim, but could not locate him and immediately called the Coast Guard.

Company officials said they are not making statements due to an ongoing investigation.

Zecca and Herrin, of the Sheriff's Office, said a meeting of all agencies to discuss procedures would be held.

Zecca said he plans to add to Coast Guard protocol that the Key Largo Fire Department be notified immediately for help in future diver situations.


For those who see conspiracies everywhere, the source for this is:

http://upperkeysreporter.com/articles/2005/05/13/news/news02.txt

 

[DennisS]

It's good to get some facts on the incident instead of rampant speculation. I'm sure this will release a whole new wave of what ifs, maybes, and I wonders.