(5/01/05) Diver missing in Florida

[redrover]

..... Frankly, pilot fish brings up some good points -- what's to say the captain had those times correct? I can tell you in a situation like that, my eye isn't on the clock to make sure I know exactly when "xxx did such and such, then yyy responded with this other thing" -- five minutes could be either on the long or the short side. Remember the word "approximately" was used.
The only time that can be trusted is the time next to the logfile entry at the Coast Guard and other emergency services operators... and even then you need to make sure their clocks are syncronized to the same source.

I don’t know dive boat captions in particular.

But persons used to needing to account for events, actions ect like what they did in a situation are good at noting time.

One good ‘war story’ from someone else about providing detailed information (ie Incident Report) that included: at approximately, around 10 minutes later, it must have been, couldn’t have been any longer than, I think it was or making up timelines conflicting with other witnesses and getting reamed in court or by regulatory agencies makes it quickly become automatic to note time of events and actions. And if they want their accounting to be ‘trusted’ in the interest of liability.

 

[BIGSAGE136]

Am I correct in that 1 capt took 4 divers out to dive the Grove?

 

[ReefGuy]

That's just it. There has been no definitive word, nor any details of the account past what has been in the paper. This entire thread has been nothing but speculation, and bad speculation at that. This train wreck should be closed.

Am I correct in that 1 capt took 4 divers out to dive the Grove?

 

[String]

I think that is a great idea Mike, have a small boat able to launch, or already in the water on certian sites, like the SG ,to pick up divers.

Or do what every single boat in this country does - doesnt anchor or moor at a dive site, drops divers in near the shot line, picks them up off the shot line or their bag when done. Boat never stops.

If a diver has to be picked up like that he'd have to pay an additional cost. I'd gladly pay a reasonable fee rather than stay distressed at the mooring ball, or get swept away.

I wouldnt. Dive site conditions can change very rapidly and often unpredictably. It only takes a second to stop to look at something on sea bed or a buddy stopping to get off the wreck and in a current that means you arent getting back to the shot. So many factors totally outside a divers control that to fine them is ridiculous. In some situations it could be far more dangerous fighting back to a line than drifting off.
Why would you worry about being swept away? You get taken off the wreck then just shoot a bag and drift comfortably underneath ir surfacing and performing any deco or safety stop you might have. Much nicer than doing a human flag impression on a fixed line.

I think most divers would like that option.

Disagree with that.


One thing with dive incidents. Peoples first reaction is to blame someone/anyone. There are times where nobody is really to blame for an incident, things do sometimes just happen due to situations outside a divers control such as a sudden current, surge, sea picking up, equipment failiure and so on. Taking responsibility for ones own actions and accepting if it goes wrong you cant blame someone else is a big thing here.

 

[BIGSAGE136]

That's just it. There has been no definitive word, nor any details of the account past what has been in the paper. This entire thread has been nothing but speculation, and bad speculation at that. This train wreck should be closed.

I understand your frustration. I dont think it should be closed though. #1 we need to learn something from this. Unfortunately we cant until all of the FACTS are determined. An autopsy report would be great, and possibly definitive. Was the boat properly staffed under prudent conditions? Where are the people who dove that day. Why cant they say something.

The silence is deafening. Whats with the shy?

 

[sharpenu]

The fact is that seldom is an accident caused by any one factor. Usually, it is a large number of small errors that add up to disaster. Having a rescue boat standing by at every dive site is just not possible, as that would kill diving. It would be far to expensive to dive. The same for additional crew to staff chase boats, etc.

There is no substitute for training and experience.

Mistakes were made, that is obvious. There is a corpse to prove that much. The corpse still had a weightbelt and no air in the BC. He had no buddy. That is not to say all of the things that went wrong were on the diver. However, the person doing the dive has the first, last and most direct effect on the outcome.

This wreck is an advanced dive. Did he have the training and experience to do this dive? Or was he sold a fistfull of C cards? It is possible under more that one agency to be a "Master diver" or "divemaster" with 25 to 60 dives. You can go from novice to instructor in less than 3 months.

We will never know if he was taught and didn't learn, or was never taught, but one thing is true- a man is dead and the training available throughout the industry is inadequate at best. This isn't necessarily the fault of the agencies, either. The driving force is money and time. Most divers won't spend the time and money to learn properly.

 

[MoonWrasse]

aww... and here I thought it was just part of the way things happened in the "Accidents and Incidents" forum. It seemed so common!

LOL, it does seem that way at times.

The trouble is that these issues have emotions so attached that things seem to escalate quickly. Frankly, pilot fish brings up some good points -- what's to say the captain had those times correct? I can tell you in a situation like that, my eye isn't on the clock to make sure I know exactly when "xxx did such and such, then yyy responded with this other thing" -- five minutes could be either on the long or the short side. Remember the word "approximately" was used.

The only time that can be trusted is the time next to the logfile entry at the Coast Guard and other emergency services operators... and even then you need to make sure their clocks are syncronized to the same source.

I agree that Pilot Fish has brought up some good points. Kudos to him/her for sticking to their guns.

One thing I'm still concerned about this whole event, seems to be the lack of a plan/procedure to deal with a rescue situation just like what happened. I dive in the third world, and I'll tell you it's safer than what has been described.

However there looks like some agreement from both the PF side and those who choose to attack him, that the risks can be mitigated. It's just a matter of cost - someone has posted a rather high cost of $500, which I don't agree with. Reminds me of the case of Chrysler and rear door latches on their vans a few years back...

 

[Tom Winters]

I mentioned earlier that while I was a professionally-licensed dive boat captain, several times I left my vessel unattended to rescue divers in distress. This is a direct violation of USCG regulations and could have cost me my license if someone had complained.
None of the people I rescued ever filed a vessel-abandonment report. If I could, I would swim them back to the boat, but with the currents and plus the fact that I did not like leaving my boat empty, sometimes I pulled their weight belt and inflated them for a later pickup. They were always ok with that - they knew they were ok. Once a guy had to wait an hour for a pickup since I had 23 other divers to deal with, but he just enjoyed the view of the Waianae Mountains. Considering that he would have been dead without me grabbing him, he was happy.
Now on the Spiegel Grove, the mooring balls are too far to throw a line, even if you're Jose Canseco and you had a double shot of steroids for breakfast that morning. And a lot of boat captains are in pretty lousy shape - I did long distance swim races - and if a lot of them jumped in after a struggling diver, there would be two dead people instead of one.
So what do you do? Watch people die? I sure couldn't do that. I'd have a longboard on my boat if I couldn't swim people down and back. The currents can be wicked on the Spiegel Grove - strong enough to pull your mask. If a guy couldn't paddle it on a longboard, he should be in the ICU anyway. Chase boats are great but economically impossible - the Coast Guard would require a second suitably licensed captain.
So be careful when you dive stuff like the Spiegel Grove. It's an immensely popular tourist dive, but it sure can kill you.
Last word - the thing with the weight belt. The NUADC in Rhode Island which compiles diving fatality statistics time after time after time in the post mortem report mentions with too much regularity the fact that the deceased still had the weight belt on. When I was a member of a military dive club in Hawaii, we had a standing offer to replace free any weight belt that someone dropped. All they had to do was ever think of dropping it - that's the time to do it - no questions asked, no belittlement - just a new weight belt. I never had to buy one either. I did that in my charter business too and never had to buy a replacement. I don't know what goes through a panicking dying diver's head, but dive with me and replacing the weight belt sure isn't one of them.

 

[Island Dog]

I have two questions for the group.

Given the facts that the victim did several things wrong...left his buddies, may or may not have drained his tank, failed to inflate his bc, failed to drop his weights. and finally let got of the mooring line. Why are so many people so quick to accuse or imply that the captain told him to let go?

Also many of you seem to have the impression that the victim remained on the surface for several minutes. Would it change your thoughts if you consider that he was on the mooring line only a minute or less as I understand the events to have taken place?

 

[Tom Winters]

That sounds about right - they had one minute to do something. No matter what the capain was yelling to him, the diver was not responding.
Yup - the diver did a whole bunch of wrong things, any one of which could have killed him. Doing all those things just make his fate all the more certain. So what do you do - form a discussion group in the boat, discuss his lack of skills, and watch him drown?
So there was a 60 second window of opportunity to get to the guy. I guarantee you that no matter how badly he was panicked, without a weight belt in a manually-inflated bc with a +4.4 empty aluminum tank , and a wetsuit on, that guy is floating until you pull him out of the water.
It's entirely possible that nothing would have saved the diver - it's a tough swim in a situation like that. You pretty much have to be ready to go - either fin up and get moving or launch a rescue longboard - you have to get your butt in gear PDQ or you're wasting your time.
For all I know, the diver ran into trouble at depth and died from something not related to the dive at all - sometimes your number just plain comes up. But it sure sounds like the cause-of-death will come in with drowning.
But nothing got done since no one went after the guy during that single minute.
Been there, done that.
The guy(s) in the boat were there, didn't do that.
I personally knew two industry people who separately killed customers - one was an instructor; the other was a captain. Both of them were competent at their occupations and had worked at their positions for years; they just managed at least one time to screw up.
If a customer drops dead from a heart attack or something like that, hey stuff like that happens; and sometimes diving situations arise that cause fatalities. It's the nature of the sport.
But geez - this guy was on the surface and panicked out of his gourd. Sure kinda sounds saveable to me.