300PSI SPG?

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northernone

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I've been wanting to try this for a while.

Any one know a method for checking IP at depth? I can ballpark it with a regular SPG on a LP port, but that makes for a tiny range and I doubt accuracy (or should I calibrate and carry a magnifying glass?) I want to watch the way various regs handle IP with increasing depth.

Curiosity is getting me.
 
Shouldn't the IP be the same at depth as it is one the bench?

That's exactly my curiosity.

From my reading, some are, some aren't, some claim to be. There's a few that advertise it as a feature even.

Here's the context:

The advantage of increasing IP (over the proportiopnal increase in ambient pressure) would be to increase the flow rate of the reg. With air passages of a given area, the higher the air pressure, the more air you can push through those passages (within reasonable limits and subsonic velocities) in a given amount of time. So the idea behind Apek's overbalancing would be to improve the flow rate of the reg at depth. Theoretically this increase in IP will offset the increase in viscosity that occurs at depth where the absolute pressure of the air in the intermediate portions of the reg is higher.

Boosting the intermediate pressure is a lot like turbocharging an engine to improve power output (more mass flow = higher power). However the other approach is to simply use a larger engine with naturally greater mass flow to generate more horsepower in the first place.

What this means in regulator terms is that over balancing really only makes sense in a first stage that is flow challenged already...or as a marketing tool to convince divers to buy your reg as opposed to someone elses.

This also explains why other non "over balanced" regs produce equal or superior WOB compared to "over balanced" Apeks regs. If a reg has decent flow passages and an already excellent flow rate, it does not need to increase the IP at depth to compensate for increased viscosity or inadequate flow paths.

Over balancing also causes a potential tuning problem, especially with non adjustable second stages. The poppet in the second stage is balances the downstream force acting on the poppet with a combination of spring pressure and air pressure from the balance chamber. However, by neccesity the system is not perfectly balanced as you need to have a downstream bias to ensure the second stage can vent any excess pressure that may result from a leaking HP seat that would further increase IP.

What this means is that with a non "over balanced" regulator, I can adjust the cracking effort very precisely at the surface to give minimum inhalation effort at any depth and be assured that this will not result in a free flow at depth. The same is not true with an "over balanced" regulator as I would need to tune it at the surface to have a higher inhalation effort to accommodate the 25 psi increase that would occur at 165'. If I did not, the reg would begin free flowing as you went deeper - exactly what you do not what to have happen. So...with over balancing you may get "lighter" inhalation efforts and lower WOB at depth, but you will be paying for it at shallower depths where you would have higher inhalation effort and higher WOB. An adjustable second stage would however let you adjust the inhalation effort and offset this negative effect.

However a diver is, in my opinion, far better off going with a reg that is balanced to maintain a very precise IP (above ambient pressure) regardless of depth as it will ensure max performance with minimum adjustment regardless of depth.

The term "over balanced" is also a vauge concept. Scubapro, for example, uses the term "over balanced" to refer to the slightly larger diameter of the seating edge on the piston compared to the shaft diameter of the piston. The ensures that the areas of the seating surface itself is totally balances resulting in an extremly stable IP (compare to other "balanced" designs where the actual area of the seating edge itself is often not balanced which can result in a 4-6 psi change in IP as tank pressure varies form 3300 to 300 psi). The term has some meaning and usefulness as Scubapro defines it while the term is basically nothing more than a marketing gimic the way Apeks defines it.

I have 5 regs which are prone to at significant depth, freeflow (adjustable second). I'm interested to see what the 1st stages are up to.

Cameron
 
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Hi Cameron,

@Luis H modified a few IP gauges (basically drilled holes in the case) to allow ambient pressure to enter the case. If I remember correctly the results were as expected; most regulators maintained the same IP regardless of depth. Of course this is because IP is gauge pressure above ambient. I.e. to find the absolute pressure add .445 to the gauge pressure for every foot of sea water.

Pix here: Spec Boot For Mk-15 However, I think Luis documented the results in a thread (that I've been unable to find)
 
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Hi Cameron,

@Luis H modified a few IP gauges (basically drilled holes in the case) to allow ambient pressure to enter the case. If I remember correctly the results were as expected; most regulators maintained the same IP regardless of depth. Of course this is because IP is gauge pressure above ambient. I.e. to find the absolute pressure add .445 to the gauge pressure for every foot of sea water.

Pix here: Spec Boot For Mk-15 However, I think Luis documented the results in a thread (that I've been unable to find)

Thank you for pointing me in the right direction.

Interesting!

On a somewhat related side note, this is interesting data as well:
DA Aqua Master IP change with tank pressure
 
Cameron, there is SEALED LP Gauge: Mini Scuba Gauge, PG-JH2-LP - AROPEC SPORTS CORP.
p_130311_06444.jpg

it has 3/8 thread, as normal hose. Just screw it in reg and use underwater :)
I used it - it works :)
 
Several things need to be pointed out here.
IP does/must change relative to the surface pressure if the reg is to work properly but at the same time IP does not change in reference to ambient pressure.....in most regs, more on that in a minute. In other words, if you reference the IP to the ambient pressure at the surface (14.7 psi) which is what a sealed gauge does, the IP as referenced to surface ambient pressure will increase as depth/ambient increases (roughly 0.5 psi/ ft depth) . However, what we are really interested in is the IP as referenced to the ambient pressure at depth, this value does not change as depth changes, again on most regs. Think of it this way, we are interested in the difference in pressure inside the hose vs the pressure outside the hose, that needs to stay the same if the second stage is going to work properly, remember the ambient pressure around the second stage also changes with depth. All regulators are designed to keep the IP constant as referenced to ambient pressure, that is the purpose of the holes in piston regs . If you measure IP at the surface to be 140 psi, descend to 66 ft which is an increase in ambient pressure of roughly 33 psi, the IP will measure (140 + 33= 173 psi) to 173 on the gauge (remember it's sealed and still referencing the surface). Now if you put a hole in the gauge case to allow ambient pressure to be the reference, the gauge will drop back to 140.
Back to the "most regs" statement. Some regs claim to be "over balanced" which is in itself a misnomer, they are actually "over depth compensated" These regs are designed to increase the IP slightly more than the ambient pressure increase to make up for increased density of the air flowing through the reg...it's debatable if it really accomplishes much but makes a good selling "feature".
 
Actually there is another interesting thing to measure with an IP gauge underwater, that's the amount of IP drop during demand as depth increases. Even though the needle movement on most IP gauges is not accurate for measuring IP drop during air flow, I bet you can still get a sense of how much harder the first stage is working to provide IP during demand as depth increases.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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