3 Day wonder certifications

[Warren_L]

fgray1 once bubbled...
D33PS1X
I would love to see the differance.
All I know is when it comes to my life and saftey I would prefer to err on the side of caution.
But I know that there are those that will take any risk no matter the cost or loss of someone else.
And there are those that think they have the right to do so.
We are taught that in diving you can and should call the dive for any reason and it sounds from some responses here that you end up on a boat with all solo divers. So much for the buddy system.
You guys are right. In a perfect world with perfect instuctor and all people having the same intelegance and learning under the same conditions a 3 day course would be fine. When you find that place let me know.
Do you guys realize there are 20 differant certifing agencies now all with differant standards of instuction. Maybe that's the problem.

Fred

I don't think anyone is asking you or suggesting that you should compromise your own standards and safety, but labelling everyone that has gone through a 3 day training program all in the same manner may not be appropriate. Like you, I will not dive with anyone I feel is unsafe, but I won't base that on the agency or the training program they've taken.

To me, there is also a big difference between an unsafe diver and a diver with lesser skills. If it hadn't been for the more experienced dive buddies I've had, I may not have been able to improve my skills as much as I've been able to when I first started diving. In fact, one of my regular dive buddies and I learned together, so for much of my initial diving, I was diving with someone very inexperienced and new as well. I have no problem diving with a new diver, even a 3 day wonder if I see the right attitude and of course a good grasp of the fundamentals.

About the instructors being perfect - True to a point, but I don't believe that you don't need to have the "perfect" instructor to produce capable divers in such a program. An instructor does not need to have the ultimate diving and teaching skills, but rather one that obvious has excellent skills and good teaching abilities combined with a contagious ethusiam for the sport and a healthy respect for its risks and safety. I know of several instructors like that - that said, I also know of some who do not fit this mold.

 

[hvulin]

Hi,

I finished my first course (the test part) with SSI (5 days) and not PADI but as far as I'm concerned, I don't care about the number of days someone had for a course. When I choose my buddys (and I don't allow anybody to choose them for me) I look at how they handle their equipment on surface and how secure do they look to me, everything else is useles... (but I'm only an AOWD)

My instructor (who later took me through S&R and AOWD) who works as DM prefers to put ALL divers whom he never dived with in a begginer group for at least 1 dive, and then decide if he will let them do some serious (read deep, night, etc.) diving with more advanced groups... If people don't like that idea, they can go but not under his supervision (he takes them to location, gives them all the required info and max . dive time). He said that he doesn't want to be responsible for anybody's death!

I've seen too many "instructors" hitting the bottom like a brick or having problems connecting their equipment, to trust the certificate alone...

 

[jviehe]

Interestingly enough, I went back and looked at DAN stats:

Only 10% of those injured in 2001 had <1 year experience, however 50% of those injured had 0-19 dives in the last 12 months. 39% were students or entry level certed only.

For fatalities, 40% were OW certed, 50% were certed for 1 year or less, and 80% had 0-19 dives in the last 12 months. This is out of 77 fatalities.

One thing we might draw from this is that cert level may not matter as much as diving more often. Though if you look at the curve, this may just be that most divers are beginners for life.

 

[kwesler]

From my personal experience, and from reading Scubaboard for the past 2 years or so, here is my executive summary:

1) It is not the agency or course design that makes for a good course-it is the instructor

2) Any education, SCUBA or otherwise, is a mutual commitment between the student and teacher. Each is pledging their best efforts to master the material, and the process of the exchange of information.

3) There IS a temperment to "the good diver"-commitment to ongoing learning, safety and responsibility to the environment, their fellow divers and the sport in general.

4) The first, arguably most important decision a SCUBA wannabe makes is who will train them. Sadly, it is VERY unlikely the student will have the necessary information to make an informed decision. Therefore, marketing wins. That is not a good basis for this important decision.

How did I do?

Ken

 

[MikeFerrara]

IMO, time isn't the issue. Skill is the issue.

As far as I'm concerned the statistics that are always refered to don't mean a thing. First off it's raw dat for the most part. We don't know how many divers are doing how many dives so the number of injuries/deaths means little. Maybe not exactly raw data but we sure can't use it for any probability calculations. Also near misses aren't usually reported and I've seen lots of em.

Also it's a fact that you can drop to the bottom and walk around and most often not have a problem. I dived for a number of years with no formal training. I didn't get hurt so does that mean my training was good? No, it means that nothing went wrong so I never had the need for training. For the first couple of years I didn't even know that you weren't supposed to hold your breath. Does that mean divers can dive safely without knowing that? It looks to me like another oportunity to shorten the class a little. What do you think.

I've seen a bunch of people hurt and I've seen many more incedents that didn't result in injury but could have. Statistically I would say that the majority of times the average (hard to define) recreational diver has a problem they fail to handle it in such a way as to get a desireable outcome. Yet, the vast majority of the dives just don't result in any problem at all.

After seeing the large percentage free flows and other little problems that result in rapid ascents (with or without injury) or some other bad thing, my conclusion is that typical training is good enough as long as nothing goes wrong and we don't mind a lot of silt and some trashed coral.


I say we judge based on silting or reef contact and not injuries or deaths.

To say that traiing is good enough because the number of deaths is acceptable is some kind of twisted logic that I don't understand. Tell me the percentage of problems that are handled successfully by divers. Tell me what the probability is that a new diver who has a fee flow in Gilboa is going to suffer a rapid ascent and become seperated from their buddy. I say it's near 100%. It must be because I've seen so many shoot out of the water to their waist and some were hauled off in an ambulance. That isn't good.

Last time I was at Gilboa there was a new photo album in the office. Looking through it I noticed that there wasn't a single picture of a diver who wasn't sitting, standing, kneeling or laying on the bottom. I think that perfectly illustrates how well we teach buoyancy control.

Should we ban the three day classes? I don't think so. If I was running an agency though the standards would be a lot different and to finish in three days you would have to be able to get pretty good in three days. I don't think that's what we have now.

 

[MikeFerrara]

jviehe once bubbled...
Interestingly enough, I went back and looked at DAN stats:

Only 10% of those injured in 2001 had <1 year experience, however 50% of those injured had 0-19 dives in the last 12 months. 39% were students or entry level certed only.

For fatalities, 40% were OW certed, 50% were certed for 1 year or less, and 80% had 0-19 dives in the last 12 months. This is out of 77 fatalities.

One thing we might draw from this is that cert level may not matter as much as diving more often. Though if you look at the curve, this may just be that most divers are beginners for life.

Also note that in something like 60% of those buoyancy control problems were reported.

Last years report showed a similar number but it was also reported for injuries. It was like 40%+.

In the accidents that I've seen the diver was never hurt by anything that hapened at the bottom. they hurt themself by doing a rapid ascent in response to the problem which shouldn't have been a problem at all.

From the last few DAN reports it looks like new divers and divers who don't dive often are the ones who get hurt. Are these the divers who have the poorest skills?

Maybe buoyancy control is more important than we thought huh? Maybe we should teach it before issueing a cert rather than telling the student they'll et it later.

In reading incedent report it also seems that divers are usually alone when they die. Do you think there's a problem with buddy skills? Maybe we could examine the buddy skill performance requirements of an OW class and get a clue as to why.

Poor skills = a diver who cant handle a problem. They may not have a problem but if they do they have far less of a chance than the skilled diver. If the so called statistics prove anything they prove that they probably won't have a problem. Too me, though they also indicate that the new divers and the divers with little recent experience who also seem to have lousy buoyancy control don't handle problems well when they happen.

The next time you see a newly certified diver in the water ask yourself how you think they will do if they have a problem NOW.

 

[kwesler]

I have heard that the most incidents occur with divers with the least experience and the most experience...is that true?

Ken

 

[MikeFerrara]

kwesler once bubbled...
I have heard that the most incidents occur with divers with the least experience and the most experience...is that true?

Ken

I don't have the report in front of me but I beleve there is a spike among divers who have been certified for a long time (don't remember the cut off). There might even be a spike in like among pros. I'm speaking from memory so excuse me if my terminology doesn't match the report exactly.

Again though, are these divers doing many more dives? Or have they not dives in a long time? Also the length of time one has been certified says little about their skill level.

Some of the worst divers I know have been diving for many years.

One of my biggest concerns about training is that I see so many divers who just don't seem to get better. From watching my own students and the students of instructors I've worked with, it looks to me like a diver with a good skill foundation will get better fast. If, however, the diver never learned the mechanics of balance and trim (for example) or how to control a descent and stay with a buddy (for another) they never or rarely improve at all. They just seem to practice doing it poorly forever. Divers can't learn goof finning technique if they never get horizontal. They can't get trimmed if they never heard the term or if they don't understand how the effecting forces change when a wet suit compresses loosing buoyancy and air is added to the bc.

If those things aren't learned, they never learn to control a descent.

If they aren't taught that it's during dynamic portions of the dive (ascents and descent especially) when things are most likely to go wrong then they never learn how important it is to be alert and in control during those portions of the dive. How often do we see a group of divers drop and then meet up at the bottom. That happened with the lady who drowned in the Kelp recently. She didn't show up at the bottom so her two buddies went looking for her then. They should have been together the whole time. Why? because that's when problems hapen. How often do we see a class descend and it's raining students. They're all over. They often aren't made to descend in a buddy team. When they leave class they continue diving the same way. When their buddy has a free flow on descent they won't be around to help and they won't know anything's wrong til they find themself at the bottom alone.

I'm rambling sorry. My point is though that divers won't improve in things they were never taught so the time between training and accident may not mean much unless they lucked into some one who taught them along the way of they invented it themself.

 

[kwesler]

here is a new idea...isn't it true that insurance is a major expense for boats and LDS etc.? What if there was some sort of continuing education credit for divers, that they could prove to the shops etc. The idea would be that better trained divers are less likely to have a problem, therefore reducing liability for the shops and boats. The resulting decrease in insurance payments get passed on to the divers in the form of reduced fees for fills and charters. This is how driver's ed works.

This would provide a financial incentive to divers to pursue their training, and offer some relief to the pros offering their services. It would also hopefully increase the number of people training, improving the financial picture for everyone in the business.

Ken

 

[1dondino]

I am scheduled to take a 3 day course in January. I couldn't take the course over a longer period of time due to working rotating shift work. I was going to miss at least 2 classes in any other BOW schedule. I realize that the 3 day course and the 2 day OW boat dives are just a beginning, really a license to start learning! I have had the study materials for almost a month now, and I am looking for all the information I can before starting class. I have talked to my instructor about what will be covered in class, and feel comfortable that I will be able to procede from the class to make myself a better and more compentent diver. I feel we have to learn by watching and getting guidance from divers we interact with, and taking classes/dives to expand our knowledge base.
The 3 day class may not be perfect, but for some of us it may be the only viable option to get certified and start really learning.
Just an opinion from someone who is excited about getting into this.
Don