3 Day wonder certifications

[scubasean]

kwesler once bubbled...
here is a new idea...isn't it true that insurance is a major expense for boats and LDS etc.? What if there was some sort of continuing education credit for divers, that they could prove to the shops etc. The idea would be that better trained divers are less likely to have a problem, therefore reducing liability for the shops and boats. The resulting decrease in insurance payments get passed on to the divers in the form of reduced fees for fills and charters. This is how driver's ed works.

I like the idea, but the problem is that the cost to be passed on to the consumer would be pennies...as compared to the hundred or two hundred the continuing education might cost...

(On the other hand, I believe my auto insurance cost for a minor driver goes down 10 percent for his good grades...a much higher reward for continuing good performance)

How much does a dive boat pay for insurance per diver boarded that year?

For only weekends, you might get 20 divers on a smaller boat X twice a day, for two days = 80 divers...times 50 weeks = 4000 equivalent divers If you count weekdays, you add many more diver equivalents...

How much is yearly insurance per diver equivalent? a buck or two? (Actually, probably much less....)

So, the reduction would be some small fraction of that....

I'm just guessing...I'm sure many out there have the figures I'm guessing at...

 

[kwesler]

and of course, this is all predicated on the insurance company not ignoring us! We'll sic Genesis on 'em!

Ken

 

[simbrooks]

I dont know if many courses taught by LDS's, scubaboard members exempt who have mentioned their teaching techniques and success at training, but my training only a few months ago could almost be said to resemble a 3 day course. We did the home study over a couple of weeks beforehand, then one day doing pool work (about 8 hours), one day on 3 checkout dives and another day with the other checkout dive, after that we went back to the classroom to complete the written exam and be given our temp cards. Now i will say that we didnt feel all that confident on leaving the pool that we had really learnt things to the point where we could demonstrate them, but nevertheless we did try. Whilst we were waiting for the instructor to get around, we practiced a little with some of the techniques in the pool, rather than sitting there dumbly looking at nothing like the rest, and did the same in the checkout dives when we could - without going too far to shoot to the surface etc.

Due to ear troubles we didnt do the 4th dive for another few weeks, during which time i found this board, read a load (my bosses dont realise quite how much time i spend on here!) on here and in another few books, discussed what was read with my GF who was with me on training and then tried to apply it on the 4th dive, and with some success (limited, but noticible) with being better at the basic skills.

We, like 1dondino, couldnt really get the timing sorted out to take longer on this and although in essence it was like a 3 day course, we tried to get the most out of it. Although we know there is a long way still to go, we practice what we can, when we can, dry or wet, talk things thru and keep trying to go thru things (visualizing - see the thread on "out of water skills" recently). I know that the timing wasnt ideal, but very few things in this life are unless you have loads of time and money to make them ideal.

 

[crispos]

You have to watch out about statistics.

If 40% of accidents are OW (Basic) Divers, but 80% of the active diving population is OW (Basic), then it doesn't prove much. And I think there is a big difference between someone with 0 dives in the last 12 months, and 19 dives. All in the same category though.

In addition, DAN only picks up divers treated at hyperbaric chambers and chambers that have reported back to DAN. In my mind, for every hyperbaric treated diver there are probably 10 or more near miss incidents which did not result in injury, due to luck, intervention, etc. It is those potential accidents that should also be of concern. DAN accidents are the tip of the iceberg.

DAN statistics are useful but limited. BSAC includes Coast Guard reports which encompasses some incidents as well as chamber rides. Got to check what the Canadian Coast Guard does.

Has anyone information on how (sport) diving affects a healthy diver's ability/cost of a life insurance policy? I tried to get a policy including the fact that I am a recreational diving instructor, and they rated the policy so I didn't pursue it but I still have to get something in this regard.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Life Insurance...

Mine is through work. The carier has changed but last I checked they didn't care that I was a diver.

I also carry the DAN insurance.

 

[PhotoTJ]

Agency? No

Instructor? Nah

Course length? Doubt it.

Student? No more calls, we have a winner!
Some are instant aquamen, (and aquawomen!), some should be nicknamed 'anchor'. Hey, if you're 4'1" and weigh 80 lbs, don't try out for the NFL. On the other hand, 6'6" and 285 won't be riding the winner at Belmont anytime soon.

My point is, some people are cut out for some things, and some are cut out for others, and all the desire in the world won't make a difference. Everyone also has a different learning curve, what some may grasp in an hour, may take others a week.

No matter how much we want to do it, divers can't be pigenholed.

We are all unique.

Dive safe, (whether you're a 3 day wonder, or a 6 week worker!)

TJ

 

[scubamoley]

My buddy and myself are the products of a three day fast track PADI open water course. Although this was not the first time either of us had been underwater. We had done two resort dives in Greece and two in Mexico a couple of years beforehand.
We were sent the books to learn the theory about 3 months before we were due to start the course.
This meant that when it came to the written exam we got 96% and did not struggle with any of the theory. This also meant we had more time to concentrate on getting plenty of practice on the skills.
We also had a very good instructor.
I cannot say the same for others in our group. One of them in particular scraped through with 76%, could not understand the tables, and even after "qualified" could not clear their mask without holding on to their buddy and kneeling on the sea bed.

I am not saying I was a perfect diver when newly qualified, but there are enormous differences between students.
Rather than ban the three day courses, people should not be handed their cards at the end of the course, regardless of ability, just because they paid their money.

 

[JohnF]

Throughout this thread and the many like it, posters constantly refer to 3 or 5 day courses, and weekend wonders etc. I don't think this describes the courses adequately.

Fr'instance: My wife and I took a 5 week PADI course with 2 days of OW for the check dives. That seems to be an acceptable standard by most here. The problem is that those 5 weeks in fact were 5 Sunday evenings from 5:00 - 8:00 at the YMCA. The first few minutes were spent watching a video, then a classroom session based on the video material, followed by a short written test. Then we all trooped down to the pool and spent the last hour in the water. The 2 days OW sessions comprised two 40 minute dives on each of two days during which we did skills tests etc.

So by my reckoning that was actually a maximum of 10 hours of classroom time, 5 hours of pool time, and about 2 1/2 hours of open water time including the check dives.

My point is why is that better than doing two consecutive days of 9 to 9 and then the check dives? According to my math that's 24 hours (say 20 with food breaks) of classroom and confined water time compared to my 15 total hours. I'd be more interested in knowing how many classroom, confined water and open water hours were included in each person's training than how many days or weeks the course was described as offering.

And don't get me wrong. I'm not complaining. I came away feeling like I'd learned something. But more importantly I came away knowing I had a lot more to learn and have been working at that ever since. I don't think I'm a bad diver. Some of my newfound internet friends with whom I've dived in venues like Boynton Beach and Gilboa tell me I'm not too much of a hazard in the water, and these are rec.scubans, so you know if they could make something nasty out of it, they would. 8)

JohnF

 

[voop]

JohnF once bubbled...


<SNIP>

My point is why is that better than doing two consecutive days of 9 to 9 and then the check dives? According to my math that's 24 hours (say 20 with food breaks) of classroom and confined water time compared to my 15 total hours. I'd be more interested in knowing how many classroom, confined water and open water hours were included in each person's training than how many days or weeks the course was described as offering.

<SNIP>

Well, there's time and then there's time Working time and "calendar time", to be exact...

Some people function in the way of "read the book, hear the lecture" and then everything has stuck to their brains, been absorbed and questions are asked immediately. Such people are well suited for the "3 day wonder" courses.

Then there are those -- just as intelligent and well suited for diving -- who "hear the lecture, read the chapter, let it sink, think" and then come up with questions after pondering the stuff for a while. Having one weekly lecture, with time in between to read, think and possibly discuss the stuff is greatly beneficial to those.

My experiences (I teach university classes professionally, although not in scuba diving) are, that the first "type" very rare, even for introductory courses. And for higher-level courses, mostly everyone benefits from "time" to let things think in.

In other words, while the "working time" may be equivalent, the "calendar time" isn't. And the subconsiousness (sp?) may spend the calendar time working on stuff on its own....

Now, I do not teach scuba -- but in the topics I teach, the above seems to be fairly universal. YMMV, of course....

 

[simbrooks]

John F,

in answer to your question, the training we got was take home CD-Rom - time depends on how many times you go through it, takes at least 2 hours per section of clicking, reading, scrolling etc. For 5 sections that would be about 10 hours (approx) - didnt really time that, but in the ball park.

Confined water, we had one day in the pool, two longish 3 hours pool sessions before light failed (about 6pm at the time), plus some other time on the pool deck sorting out equipment etc. Then 4 30ish minute dives in a local lake over two days.

Area: My est. Your est. Vacation 3 day course est.
Class ~10(self) ~10(group) what time you spent at home
Confined ~6 ~5 probably 4-6
Open ~2 ~2.5 probably 1.5-2.5
(all times in hours)

Doesnt seem to be all that different, it also depends on class size, for our confined it was 6 students to 1 instructor & 1 DM, open water was 2 students to 1 instructor (lucky timing that others couldnt go that weekend).

I am not sure how much this is really like the weekend courses they teach though, ours was scheduled to be over 2 consecutive weekends, turned out to be more as we couldnt do the second OW day due to my ears. Your course was over 5/6 weeks. The weekend courses, assuming you have read up beforehand are probably about the same length of time in the water, BUT there isnt as much time for skills/knowledge to sink in (you hopefully picked up these during the practice sessions), and so you might not be as good at learning in this way.

I am sure others have done a similar course to what we had, and those who did it over many weeks and just a few weeks probably got it ok, those who just kept having things thrown at them, without much time to contemplate on ideas or skills might not get it so well - even though the time spent was about the same.