2nd Chamber challenge

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Thanks, Captain and Hacker. About regeneration; 13X dessicant can be regenerated at home. Spread the expired dessicant on a pan. Heat oven to 450-500F and leave dessicant in the oven for six hours. Do not remove immediately after shut down. After a total of 7 hours, when dessicant is cool enough to handle, pour into air tight container. The material can be tested without much fuss. Place a sample on a precision scale and record the weight. After 24 hours, record the weight again. The dessicant should have gained 21%-24% weight. If so, it is good to go.
 
I was given this compressor,and I'm trying to find out what make it is. I think it's a Walter Kiddie. The filter housing has a mfg date of 1976, and was made by Walter Kiddie, but I can't find anything on the compressor. Thanks for any help..
Kenny
 

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Given the choice of putting the backpressure valve before or after the final canister what would be the advantage of having it before?

If I'm following your rationale correctly its: the air expands post BP valve and the cooler air gets even more moisture removed by the last filter? (at least early in the fill cycle)
 
rjack, I have been pondering much the same thing, why it works. It only makes sense if one understands the nature of 13X dessicant. Yes, it is temperature sensitive, and cooling the input air helps; sometimes, a lot. However, it does not explain everything. To me, it seems reasonable to assume that the 13X would behave inside a filter the way it does in the atmosphere, eg, there would be higher uptake of water in the humid environent inside a cartridge caused when air is compressed. That is what my calcs are based on.

Imagine two traffic tunnels. In one of the tunnels the traffic is moving very fast and the cars are widely spaced. Inside the other, the speedy traffic suddenly slows in the tunnel and the cars are spaced very closely together. At the outlet of each tunnel, the total number of cars emerging per minute is the same. Yes, the cars in the slow tunnel are emerging at a slower speed but they are much closer together, the space between them is "compressed". This is a picture of dwell, the extra time spent in the tunnel is defined as "dwell" time.

If we think of 13X as a "sponge", it would be reasonable to observe higher uptake of water in a humid environment, and lower uptake when the surrounding air is dry. This is what happens when one spreads some dessicant on a sheet inside a box of air. The dessicant seems to be "soaking" up the water.

However, with an ad-sorber like 13X,the ability to capture water vapor is based entirely on the number of collisions of water molecules with the particles of 13X. Air with no apparent movement is actually speeding along at a molecular level which which science calls calls "Brownian" movement. Over short distances, the molecules are travelling very fast indeed. They constantly impact hard surfaces nearby. By definition, there is a dense concentration of water molecules in air with high humidity and low concentration in low humidity. When the air is still with no apparent movement, this variance, in Brownian physics, directly influences the number of collisions and the amount of water vapor trapped by the dessicant. Since the dessicant has higher uptake in wet humid air it appears to be acting like a sponge. The dessicant is not acting like a sponge no matter what the tests may suggest, the dessicant is not absorbing but ad-sorbing and is trapping more molecules because in higher humidity there is greater statistical likelihood of collisions.

Imagine that the two tunnels have potholes, the same number, general size and spacing. It is statistically true that the two traffic streams, one slow and one fast, will impact the same number of potholes over a period of time. This is because the same number of cars are striking potholes provided the spacing of the vehicles or the speed inside the tunnel are such that the identical number of vehicles are exiting over a period of time.

This little metaphor illustrates why 13X behaves seemingly differently on the sheet of paper than expected for an adsorber but is actually obeying the laws of physics. Since nothing is apparently moving there should be no pothole problems. Yet, it is all about collisions with potholes. Inside a filter, the air is definitely not still, it is moving carrying the water vapor right along with it. Thus, Brownian movement and humidity are no longer controlling factors for adsorption. Although they are still around, they are no longer important for purposes of analysis. The collision rate begins to resemble the situation inside the tunnels. Inside the filter, regardless of whether the air is entrained inside the slow tunnel (dwell), or allowed to whiz through the fast tunnel (no backpressure, no dwell) the number of collisions with "potholes" are the same. Since the air in the filter, dwell or not, is actually moving, the number of collisions are no longer influenced by humidity (dense traffic) as was seen when spread on the sheet. Under forced motion, the same number of molecules will impact the "holes" in 13X no matter what. If the molecular collision strikes one of the billions of 10 angstrom "potholes" in this dessicant, the water is trapped. Whether the air stream is fast and loose or slow and dense, in the end, the collisions and the uptake of moisture are the same.
 
So, what happens to my calcs? I won't be submitting those for peer review. I'm fairly confident that the portrayal above is correct. They call Vaporshell a "sieve" for a reason. It could be argued that high humidity can cause more intermolecular collisions and hence, more impacts even in a moving stream of vapor. However, it is just as likely that such collisions could impede impacts with the dessicant and that such impacts occur at too high speed for the dessicant to capture and hold. This goes back to temperature and, possibly, angular momentum. The level of math required to prove this is above my pay grade. Thanks for your attention.
 
Whether the air stream is fast and loose or slow and dense, in the end, the collisions and the uptake of moisture are the same.

OK, assuming this is correct...
(and I have really no technical basis to know one way or the other)

I know the conventional wisdom behind the BP reg, but if your getting the same filtration why use one at all?

What's good for the primary is good for the secondary filter no?
 
The BP valve is required on the condenser for different reasons. It has to do with achieving saturation and condensation of neat water by mechanical means. Hopefully, saturation does not occur in a chemical filter. That can be dangerous. Placing the backpressure valve upstream does offer a bit of insurance against it-- water coalescing in the bottom of the filter. However, the relative trade offs for a typical compressor assembly probably do not justify moving an existing BP valve. Either setup should do a satisfactory job if the drains are attended to. The crucial detail is adjusting the BP valve to 2400 psi, no less. It makes a difference. As an aside, for purposes of PP filling, a BP valve or flow check valve should be installed downstream. Danger of oxygen back flow.
 
KROBI:
I was given this compressor,and I'm trying to find out what make it is. I think it's a Walter Kiddie. The filter housing has a mfg date of 1976, and was made by Walter Kiddie, but I can't find anything on the compressor. Thanks for any help..
Kenny

This compressor is made by Walter Kidde with no doubt, I been collected similar one in before and mine is 4 stage one ( the third stage piston with piston rings included, the fisrt and second cylinders are built in together with the crankcase block and can't separate it, the cooling fan is screw on the crankshaft directly without a spring loaded ), I supposed It might rated for 6cfm but I can't make sure it since I never make it in operation due to the crankshaft have got rusted in seriously when I received it. so far I still keeping the fisrt, second, third and fourth pistons also the third and fourth cylinders and all valves on hand for future use.

This series Kidde also have 3 stage configuration but the output pressure rated is lower than the 4 stage one.
 
First of all, Happy New Year all.

Thanks for your insight. I have read all the posts over the weekend.

My initial flow chart was made based on the LF HF appliance. I initially missed one part, “check valve” before the 2nd chamber from LF design.
Here is the modified flow chart:

Compressor Triplex Chamber – Gauge – Bleed (vent) valve –Moisture sensor - Check valve- (inlet) 2nd Chamber (outlet) – Check valve – Gauge - Vent valve - Priority valve – Moisture sensor - Hose - Din Kit (bleed and gauge) or Manifold - Tank

Relief valve – I omit it this time because the relief valve on the compressor is enough as Blue Abyss pointed.


pescador775:
I don't know what a vent valve is unless you are talking about that thing Bauer uses on the PO. A drain must be installed in the base of the can #2 unless you want to drain 30 cubic feet of gas through the fill manifold. That would be prevented by the backpressure valve unless it is mounted between #1 and #2.

A vent valve is a drain to depressurize the 2nd chamber. Do you mean the water drain valve?
Do I need to depressurize the 2nd chamber after completing the refilling job? As you know, the 2nd is pressurized at about 1800 psi due to the priority valve. What if the 2nd chamber isn’t depressurized after being used? Does it reduce the filter life?


pescador775:
I hope you are patient as it will take 20 minutes just to charge up the condenser/filter set.

Are you sure of that? I can see about 2~3 min charge up time for 7,000 CF chamber (1800 psi priority valve). You are right. It will be about 15~20 min for 32,000 CF....


oxyhacker:
Since it is easy to miss it while pondering all the heavy duty math and theory in this thread, it's worth highlighting the point Pesky makes below: too big a filter on a small system can be very aggravating, since it will take so long just to bring the system to pressure.

If you are going to be filling banks, it's no problem since the compressor will be doing a long run whenever you fire it up. But if you are using it as a typical small home compressor, to fill 1-4 tanks at a time, and often just to top up a tank or two, it can drive you mad as well as wasting compressor life and electricity.

With a intermittent duty compressor like a Coltri MCH6 or Bauer Junior the situation is even worse, since you have to let the compressor rest every couple tanks.

Why? I don’t get your point at all. It might be silly question to you though. As I understand, the air on the 2nd chamber is after the compressor. It will be regulated at around 1,800 ~ 2,000 psi due to the priority valve on the 2nd chamber system. So, the compressor will run constantly up to 1,800 ~ 2,000 psi and will go up above 2,000 psi according to being refilled tank pressure. That is, the compressor should run to do the job no matter what I have after the compressor. Why does it matter with a big 2nd chamber?:confused:

Thanks in advance,
 
Given the size of the #2 canister, it might be a good strategy to leave it pressurized, especially if it is to be used often. That would take care of Hacker's concerns as I understand them. We don't like wearing out machinery and wasting power for pumping air or gas which is to be dumped.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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