20 year shelf life for Aluminum dive cylinders

[Graeme Tolton]

If the cost to rebuild is more than the cost of new then sure that would make sense. But I have not yet seen that to the case. It often makes sense if the cost of rebuild approaches the cost of new. But again I have not yet seen that to the case.[/QUOTE]
No kidding. A valve kit is usually in the $5 range. With some labor on top of that, the cost shouldnt exceed $30. How often are valves needing a kit anyway? Most of the time a clean and relube is all that is necessary.

However, one good reason to replace an old valve would be switching over to a convertable valve to use with din or yoke. I have a pile of yoke only valves in my basement that might never be used again for that reason alone.

 

[Scared Silly]

No, we don't fill pre 1990 aluminum tanks. Our store, our policy, our simplistic approach. While I can guarantee that I am eternally vigilant in what gets filled, I can't guarantee that any other employee will be. No one cares about someone else's dive shop, and I won't as naive to think that just because I said so, that proper identification is going to get done. Hell, I still see mistakes made with simply checking the age, let alone manufacturer. It's just simpler to blanket the policy by age, rather than have them try to remember which cylinders were good on which years.

I don't think there's a perfect method, but ours is working. In a business that is losing 10-15 dive shops per year in our area, we're still doing well.

-- If that doesn't work for you, go to another dive shop. We won't lose sleep over it.

I find this post rather interesting from multiple fronts. Though I am not a business owner I am not sure i would be hiring or continuing to employee people who do not respect their work place. Further, if some one can not read tank markings correctly they probably need a job elsewhere. While I would not expect some one to remember which cylinders are AL6351 I sure as hell would expect them to read and understand a one page summary which identifies which cylinders are suspect. Further, I would have a laminated cheat sheet right next to the fill station. If they can not understand that, they probably can not operate a cascade system.

 

[Superlyte27]

I do understand a certain distrust of VIS stickers other than your own shop. And I accept that a dive shop may just have higher standards than DOT in rejecting 6351 Aluminum tanks as an unacceptable risk as they do have a failure record. But I don't understand why you can not find a way to accommodate customers who might have perfectly safe pre-1990 aluminum tanks. Perhaps you should only fill such tanks that have your store sticker enabling you to fully manage that specific condition. I hope you are not really concerned about your trained tank inspector's ability to do something so basic as identify when "Catalina" was the tank manufacturer. Perhaps you might even be able to use the more detailed page of data to identify other safe 6051 aluminum tanks but I would understand if that were a task you decided to personally perform rather than making your tank inspector(s) responsible as you would be able to exercise complete control.

DUDE, Have you ever been an employer? I can't trust an employee to buy me a Coke instead of a Pepsi at the convenience store. No one cares about the job they are doing these days. That's why I tend to employ family.

Like I said, what we are doing works for us, and some people are turned away. Thankfully the number is small. But we've been in business 40'ish years. Same owner, same building, and our number of loyal customers are growing. We only sell good gear, at rock bottom prices. But you can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time and this will be one of those times where someone isn't going to be happy.

 

[redacted]

If you do not trust your employees to handle this (and I do understand your reservations) have them refer any tank that you were having them reject that does not have your shop sticker to you for inspection and the final decision. You are still going to displease some folks, but it will be because they brought you a 6351 aluminum tank. And you will not be displeasing the guy with the 1989 Catalina tank that he know is not 6351 aluminum.

BTW, I was never an employer unless you think being a company commander of a US Army Infantry company in the late '60 would count. I have managed lots of people with limited capabilities along with some very intelligent and well motivated soldiers. The mission did not change - just the management requirements.

DUDE, Have you ever been an employer? I can't trust an employee to buy me a Coke instead of a Pepsi at the convenience store. No one cares about the job they are doing these days. That's why I tend to employ family.

Like I said, what we are doing works for us, and some people are turned away. Thankfully the number is small. But we've been in business 40'ish years. Same owner, same building, and our number of loyal customers are growing. We only sell good gear, at rock bottom prices. But you can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time and this will be one of those times where someone isn't going to be happy.

 

[mcguiver]

I am one of those dive shops that will not fill a pre-1990 tank. Not because I'm uneducated, but because I believe I am educated (as evidenced by my PSI Cert).

Here's the issue as I see it. You bring in a tank for VIP/Hydro. We perform the VIP/Hydro/EDDY test and everything checks out just fine. According to my PSI training, just because there isn't a failure point right now, doesn't mean that the issue won't/can't develop 3 weeks or 3 months from now. So, you passed EDDY, but the issue starts developing prior to reaching your next VIP.

A good friend had a fatality in his shop due to one of these tanks. We are a little gun shy. Our blanket policy gives us piece of mind. I promise, we'd rather be alive than collect $4 bucks.

Remember though, as you undoubtedly learned in your PSI training, cracks grow very slowly. This is why it is still ok to fill 6351 cylinders that have been eddy tested. When its your nuts hanging over the valve you make the call on what gets filled but after working closely with Mark Gresham of PSI on the issue I am reasonably comfortable filling 6351's after they have been properly inspected.

 

[NAM001]

AWAP, Not to be argumentative but being prior military you and I both know the differences. The military take thier responsibilities much more seriously. They get to work on time. There are logs for everything and reports for everything, People comply with policy like thier paychecks depend on it. Wait a minute it does depend on it. The military has investigations for any unexpected result. There are routine inspections to prevent complacency. Quite often any lax-ness in ones job often results in putting ones self in danger. The civilian world is just the oposite and is as diffrent as LEADERSHIP AND MANAGEMENT. Military has leadership and daily inspection/training Civilians have union contracts and ,ambulanced chaser/shift the blame, laweyers. IT IS NOT EVEN FAIR TO COMPARE THE TWO. If proof tothe hypothisis is needed....What does the score card say about military vs civilian when ift comes to tank related cylendars incidents/accidents. Pride and professionalism are rare outside of the military arena.

If you do not trust your employees to handle this (and I do understand your reservations) have them refer any tank that you were having them reject that does not have your shop sticker to you for inspection and the final decision. You are still going to displease some folks, but it will be because they brought you a 6351 aluminum tank. And you will not be displeasing the guy with the 1989 Catalina tank that he know is not 6351 aluminum.

BTW, I was never an employer unless you think being a company commander of a US Army Infantry company in the late '60 would count. I have managed lots of people with limited capabilities along with some very intelligent and well motivated soldiers. The mission did not change - just the management requirements.

 

[jm]

DUDE, Have you ever been an employer? I can't trust an employee to buy me a Coke instead of a Pepsi at the convenience store. No one cares about the job they are doing these days. That's why I tend to employ family.

I understand your frustration with employees but I think that you are lumping them all into the same category.

I was in small business for many years and was truly fortunate to have good people. If I have an employee that does not perform a task correctly then I must wonder if the employee was unable to do so because of lack of ability on the employees part or if I somehow botched my instructions to do the task correctly or my expectations of the successful outcome of the task assigned. This will usually be corrected with a chat with my employee, using either education or humor to fix the problem, sometimes at my expense if I goofed, or at theirs if they had a brain fart. I know they have the ability to perform the task correctly as I wouldn't have hired them if they were not able to in the first place.


On the other hand, if the employee is ABSOLUTELY UNWILLING to to do the job correctly, using your example he would get to have a "Coke and a smile" as he left to find a new job. Ability to do a job can be enhanced within reason but ATTITUDE will determine your employment status.

 

[NAM001]

sorry jm i have to back super on this one. It is not frustration with your employees it is a problem with the employee pool you hire from. you may be able to find 9 out of 10 good employees if you are in podunk (what ever state podunk is in) but in a college town you may find 1 in a 100. todays employees have no ownership in thier work and dont care to have any. no job,,,, well then live on mom and dads c/c . there is no threat of having to do with out to motivate one to be a good employee to protect your job. where before you had 1 in 100 come to work hung over now you have probably have maybe 1 in 10 under the influence of who knows what. Job performance is at the bottom of most employees list of priorities. Employees are more concerned with whether they get unemployment benifits when fired than keeping thier job. I know that does not describe the majority of workers but how many does it take to put you and your good workers out of a job. Many of these workers do not have to use thier product. Air tastes funny..... well what the heck i dont have to breath it i just pump it. fragrence is some one elses probblem. That posistion is thorough out your post.

Your example " employee was unable to do so because of lack of ability on the employees part or if I somehow botched my instructions to do the task correctly or my expectations of the successful outcome of the task assigned. " Never once is there ever a mantion that they qualified for the position. IE SENIOR GAS MONKEY,

and "This will usually be corrected with a chat with my employee, using either education or humor to fix the problem, sometimes at my expense if I goofed"


Chatting with employees is too friendly of a process and implies a lsck of seriousness. Humor fixes nothing. In most aspects of the scuba business there is no room for casual friendly chat over something that was felt a problem enough to be called on to the carpet for. If it is for a tank filling issue, they cant be allowed to continue till retraining and competancy can be demonstrated. some times problems are small and require little correction and then there are the times that a lp72 at 2250 was pumped to 3442 and blew a disk. That is 1. clear lack of attention and requires a more extensive correction process. 2. a symtom to a larger problem that could really bite you, your business and others. No one but invvestors and your family will act in the intrest of the business that puts clothes on thier backs. Something many should think about the next time they get break work done on thier car.

I understand your frustration with employees but I think that you are lumping them all into the same category.

I was in small business for many years and was truly fortunate to have good people. If I have an employee that does not perform a task correctly then I must wonder if the employee was unable to do so because of lack of ability on the employees part or if I somehow botched my instructions to do the task correctly or my expectations of the successful outcome of the task assigned. This will usually be corrected with a chat with my employee, using either education or humor to fix the problem, sometimes at my expense if I goofed, or at theirs if they had a brain fart. I know they have the ability to perform the task correctly as I wouldn't have hired them if they were not able to in the first place.


On the other hand, if the employee is ABSOLUTELY UNWILLING to to do the job correctly, using your example he would get to have a "Coke and a smile" as he left to find a new job. Ability to do a job can be enhanced within reason but ATTITUDE will determine your employment status.